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Post by perico on Feb 3, 2011 20:53:01 GMT -5
Great picture. Attachments:
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Post by perico on Feb 3, 2011 21:10:30 GMT -5
left to right standing: William Coonie, Samuel Binday, Larry Fun, Richard Chechil, Naiche, Geronimo, Nahdozinne, Leon Perico, Rogers Toclanney.
left to right sitting: Jewett Tissnolthtos, Alfred Chatto, Loco, Interpreter George Wratten, Nana, Baykathenn. Benjamin Colle.
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Post by jeroen on Feb 4, 2011 3:46:22 GMT -5
Thanks! There seem to be two photographs taken on that occasion, almost identical... Are you 100% sure the man standing far right is Toclanny, or could it be Yanozha?
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 4, 2011 4:36:30 GMT -5
I'm agree with jeroen of Yanozha. Also, I think I ever saw that Nahdozinne is identified as Kaathenay on another photo (it make sense because he was back of Bacathlay, his brother)
And if you look carefully Jewett Tissnolthtos seems the same man I identified as Tsinolthtos on the "Last Band topic".
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Post by perico on Feb 4, 2011 15:34:23 GMT -5
Could be Yahnozha, but Ive only seen him labeled as Toclanney.
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 5, 2011 6:24:58 GMT -5
In Loco's book, The man is identified Yanozha, but... Fun is identifed as Fawn, Bacathlay as Fun and Nadozhinne as Jim Chiricahua  Who was Chechil who seemed to be taller than Naiche? Naiche had yet the reputation to be the much taller of the chiricahuas warrios at this time. |
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Post by kayitah on Feb 6, 2011 17:40:19 GMT -5
Couldn't Chechil be the mysterious, unidentified man from the Fly images? Does anyone know when he was born and when he died?
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Post by jeroen on Feb 7, 2011 3:57:11 GMT -5
Could be... but my guess still is the mysterious man in the Fly images is Atelnietze, also described as just as tall as Naiche. If indeed he was Chechil, then how did he end up in Florida and later in Alabama, for he was not in the last band, nor among Chihuahua's followers...
There is one other possibility, he could be Tah ni toe, the man seperated in the May 1886 fights... likely Tah ni toe was sent east with the main band at Fort Apache...
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 7, 2011 5:41:24 GMT -5
for me the mysterious man IS Atelnietze. And this man never surrendered.
The tall man near Naiche named Chechil could also be Tom Chiricahua, the brother in law of Naiche who was taller than the chief. We need othr photo of Chechil to make an opinion.
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 7, 2011 7:06:47 GMT -5
btw
Che-Chil, Richard--Died: 27 February 1893 (Alabama--PVT, 12 Infantry, US Army) National Cemetery Section, 794-C
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Post by kayitah on Feb 7, 2011 14:50:53 GMT -5
for me the mysterious man IS Atelnietze. And this man never surrendered. The tall man near Naiche named Chechil could also be Tom Chiricahua, the brother in law of Naiche who was taller than the chief. We need othr photo of Chechil to make an opinion. You could be right. Are you sure that the photos below show one and the same man, and that these are not two different individuals? Unfortunately, I have never seen a good quality image from the photo on the right. But you could be right, it may be one and the same man... The man on the right seems to have a little bit a longer chin and he looks a couple years older. That may come from the different shades and incidents of light. Yet the moccasins seem to be exactly the same, which makes it very convincing... Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Feb 10, 2011 5:19:18 GMT -5
I think it is one and the same man, like you notice, the moccasins are the same, also he wears a sash in the same way on both images... I think the photographs were taken on different days though... In my opinion, both show Atelnietze (Adilnazid)...
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Post by kayitah on Feb 10, 2011 18:25:56 GMT -5
When was Atelnietze born? I think he must be in his mid-thirties on that photo, and about the same height as Naiché. A handsome man, and a very fascinating one.
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Post by jeroen on Feb 11, 2011 16:03:07 GMT -5
He was a few years older than Naiche, possibly the son of one of Cochise's brothers or sisters, and he was born in the late 1840's, so about 38 years when the Fly photos were taken.
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Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:48:06 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper.
It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs.
Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs.
Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members.
When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them.
Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles.
I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important.
I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely,
Siggy Jumper
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