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Red Fox
Jan 2, 2011 17:01:21 GMT -5
Post by carlo on Jan 2, 2011 17:01:21 GMT -5
I am trying to find the dob of Red Fox, one of Frances Densmore's Hunkpapa informants (he 'adopted' her as his own daughter and gave her the name Two White Buffalo). On the Standing Rock 1889 male census, a Red Fox is listed as age 39, which would make his birth year 1850.
So far so good, but that is unfortunately inconsistent with the information that has him participate in the fights where Sitting Bull was wounded in his foot (1856) and where Sitting Bull's father was killed (1858), cf. Vestal. Obviously impossible this is the same Red Fox - could this possibly have been his father?
And does anyone know if the Red Fox on the Standing Rock census is the same man as Densmore's informant? His name is Tokala Luta in Densmore's book, but the man in both fights mentioned is called Sungila Luta, and was also known as Rattles.
See Sprague's Standing Rock book for a 1910 photo - he would have been 60 years old, which seems about right, so the details of the fights are clearly incorrect.
Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Carlo
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 3, 2011 8:29:52 GMT -5
Carlo,
I´m afraid I can´t help you with the Hunkpapa Red Fox, but it´s obviously a difficult question. Red Fox is a name not only popular among the Hunkpapas but in all Lakota divisions. For example we have prominent headman with that name among the Oglalas and Miniconjous. I´m curious if anyone knows more.
Best wishes Dietmar
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 3, 2011 9:03:41 GMT -5
Two slightly different portraits of Red Fox by Fiske: Red Fox, 1910 by Frank Fiske
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Red Fox
Jan 11, 2011 3:03:28 GMT -5
Post by carlo on Jan 11, 2011 3:03:28 GMT -5
Ladonna or Ephriam, would either of you be able to give more details on either of the two Hunkpapa named Red Fox? The younger of the two is in Dietmar's photos. Thank you, Carlo
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Red Fox
Jan 11, 2011 10:53:41 GMT -5
Post by ladonna on Jan 11, 2011 10:53:41 GMT -5
We have Two Individual name Red Fox on Standing Rock not related to each other.
Hunkpapa
Tokalaluta-Red Fox b. 1834 Spouse: Huhaotawin b. 1855
He died when he is 91 years old 1925
We also have Yanktonais
Sungila Luta-Leo Red Fox b. 1843 Spouse: Ptewastewin Elkghost b. 1848 dieds about 1914 at the age of 70 years old
I hope this helps
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Red Fox
Jan 12, 2011 5:07:44 GMT -5
Post by carlo on Jan 12, 2011 5:07:44 GMT -5
Thank you, Ladonna, this is perfect!
So the Hunkpapa Red Fox was actually born much earlier, making it very likely he was the same man involved in those two battles in the 1850's.
It seems likely, but do you know if he was in fact Densmore's informant? Is this the same man also known as Rattles?
If so, then the name Sungila Luta (litt. Red 'Gray Fox') in Sprague's book is wrong, and should be Tokala Luta (litt. Red Fox).
Thanks again,
Carlo
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Red Fox
Jan 12, 2011 7:46:54 GMT -5
Post by kingsleybray on Jan 12, 2011 7:46:54 GMT -5
Carlo
I usually only post when I have something definite to say, and this is not definite. In the 1885 Standing Rock ration listing two men called Red Fox - and in both cases the Lakota given as Sungila Luta - are counted among the Hunkpapa. One in Thunder Hawk's band and one in Bear Looking Back's band. The distinction is important because Thunder Hawk's group had been enrolled at Standing Rock from before the Great Sioux War; Bear Looking Back was one of the headmen in Sitting Bull's camp, so was a non-treaty band leader.
I don't know which, if either, corresponds to Densmore's informant, who gave his name as Tokala Luta.
Also the Red Fox listed by Vestal as in the fight where Sitting Bull's father was killed - Rainy Butte, 1859 - might be the Miniconjou/Sans Arc warrior of that name, father of Thomas Blue Eyes. Note that in SITTING BULL, p. 47, Vestal places this Red Fox with Brown Thunder (Sans Arc) and Lame Deer (Miniconjou).
Very unsatisfactory, I'm afraid
Kingsley
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Red Fox
Jan 12, 2011 12:13:51 GMT -5
Post by ladonna on Jan 12, 2011 12:13:51 GMT -5
Thank you, Ladonna, this is perfect! So the Hunkpapa Red Fox was actually born much earlier, making it very likely he was the same man involved in those two battles in the 1850's. It seems likely, but do you know if he was in fact Densmore's informant? Is this the same man also known as Rattles? If so, then the name Sungila Luta (litt. Red 'Gray Fox') in Sprague's book is wrong, and should be Tokala Luta (litt. Red Fox). Thanks again, Carlo I am not saying anyone is wrong but........... many mistake have been made when recording our people.
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Red Fox
Jan 13, 2011 3:10:37 GMT -5
Post by carlo on Jan 13, 2011 3:10:37 GMT -5
I believe every bit of information or evidence, whether conclusive or not, contributes to the discussion and benefits the research. It's up to the researcher to determine the answer out of all of the information. So thank you, Kingsley, for posting.
The 1885 Standing Rock Ration details on band affiliation are very interesting and helpful. I also did a better check on the 1889 Standing Rock Male list, and there are actually three persons by the name of Red Fox, two named Tokala Luta (or a variation), but unfortunately all three are listed as Yanktonai. The ages given do not link either of them to the two men mentioned by Ladonna.
On Vestal's Red Fox, yes he might possibly be referring to the Mniconju as this same man pops up in 'Warpath' (p.39) specifically listed as Mniconju. However, on p.47 of 'Sitting Bull' in that same sentence Red Fox is also listed directly after prominent Hunkpapa men, as he is on p.30, and he is specifically mentioned as Hunkpapa on p.153. Since the 1856/1858 fights he participated in were predominately Hunkpapa affairs, I tend to think this is the Hunkpapa Red Fox.
It is going to be a challenge matching any of these names, and linking one of them with Densmore. Not conclusive, but since Densmore claims her informant was an important man among the Hunkpapa, my assumption is that he could very well be the same man that is mentioned in both fights, and quite possibly the same Tokala Luta noted in Ladonna's post. And he may even be one of the two listed on the 1885 Ration list... We do know for certain that the man on the pictures posted by Dietmar is Densmore's informant.
I knew what I was getting into with a relatively common name like Red Fox... Especially since I do not have access to all available census or family records, so greatly appreciate all the help.
Carlo
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Red Fox
Jan 13, 2011 4:37:10 GMT -5
Post by kingsleybray on Jan 13, 2011 4:37:10 GMT -5
A possible clue is afforded in Densmore pp 90-91, when she records that Red Fox took part in the Sun Dance three times, "at the ages of 19, about 30, and 40 years." Since the last Sun Dance at Standing Rock before modern times was held in 1882 (ibid, p. 93), Densmore's Red Fox must have been born no later than ca. 1842. Any Red Fox in the census record born after 1842 can be ruled out.
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Red Fox
Oct 15, 2012 8:20:07 GMT -5
Post by Dietmar on Oct 15, 2012 8:20:07 GMT -5
Can anyone help me out on this Red Fox, photographed by Heyn & Matsen: Is he Lakota at all?... I mean his outfit doesn´t look like it.
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Red Fox
Oct 15, 2012 10:02:40 GMT -5
Post by ladonna on Oct 15, 2012 10:02:40 GMT -5
the bead work that he is wearing sure dont look like ours, but the bag next to him has Lakota beadwork
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Red Fox
Oct 16, 2012 7:06:48 GMT -5
Post by gregor on Oct 16, 2012 7:06:48 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar,
can we be sure that the man in the photo is really a Lakota? Or maybe an Omaha?
What I have with regard to Heyn & Matzen and the above photo: From June 1 - Oct. 31, 1898 the Trans-Mississippi and International Exposition was staged in Omaha, Nebraska, where Frank A. Rinehart, assisted by Adolph Muhr made their famous photographs of Indians. In 1899 there was a follow-up exposition in Omaha, the Greater America Exposition (from July to October, 1899, but less successful as the TM). This time the Omaha studio of Heyn & Matzen (Chicago) received the contract for the 1899 expo. Photographers: Herman Heyn (1852- 192?) , George Heyn (1856 - ?) and James Matzen/Matsen (?-?). Has anybody further information on Matzen?
CU Gregor
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