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Post by perico on Jul 29, 2010 11:40:03 GMT -5
While being held as prisoners of war, 2 Apaches were sent to Govenors Island to a prison. One was Zes-cloya, also known as Louis. He was a western Apache with the Chiricahuas. I can't seem to remember the other one. Was it Colle? Anyone remember coming across this information in their research? Does anyone know if pictures exist of them at Govenors Island? Or if Kayetenay was photographed while at Alcatraz?
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Post by kayitah on Jul 29, 2010 16:50:14 GMT -5
Sounds interesting. I think you're right in that the other man was Colle/Cullah, but I'm not 100% sure. I will have to dig up the information, yet I'm not sure I can find it.
I have never seen an image of Kaetennae taken at Alcatraz. Would be very fascinating, though.
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Post by perico on Jul 30, 2010 10:00:45 GMT -5
Hmm. Was one of them Astoyey?
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Post by jeroen on Jul 31, 2010 3:17:14 GMT -5
Yes, Astoyey and Colle, we already talked a bit about these two in the Colle thread... I do not know about Zes-cloya...
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Post by kayitah on Jul 31, 2010 17:06:22 GMT -5
Thanx Jeroen  Unfortunately, I can't find the passage about Colle and Astoyeh... I know that I recently read about them, but can't remember what book it was... But I found something else, in "The Apache Rock crumbles": Late in October, Wratten was knifed and nearly killed. Culla (an Apache name that had never appeared before) and several others were drinking and began to fight. Wratten went to the drinkers and attempted to make them stop. Culla defied Wratten who picked up a stick and knocked him to the ground. The indian jumped up, pulled out his knife and slashed the interpreter. The blade struck the right side of the neck and came within a quarter of an inch of severing the jugular vein. The indian was arrested and placed in confinement at Mount Vernon. As he was being transferred to Fort Hamilton, New York, under guard, he was seen at the railroad depot. "Before leaving the station the indian shook hands all around, and bade those present good-bye. He looked as if he was sorry for what he had done, and appeared to be thoroughly repentant." |
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Post by jeroen on Aug 2, 2010 3:29:07 GMT -5
There is a short passage about Colle and Astoyey in Stockel's "Survival of the spirit" page 168.
I also found a reference to Cullah in Sweeney's Cochise, after being identified as one of the captains of Cochise:
"Cullah, born about 1825, had succeeded Yaque as chief of one group and survived the smallpox epidemic of 1862. He accompanied Taza to Washington in 1876 and headed a small Chokonen group to San Carlos in 1877."
If indeed born in 1825, he would be in his early 60's in 1886, he man identified in the Fly image as Kutli, Colle, Cullah etc.. does not seems to be 60, at least to me... What do you guys think?
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 2, 2010 15:52:48 GMT -5
There is a short passage about Colle and Astoyey in Stockel's "Survival of the spirit" page 168. I also found a reference to Cullah in Sweeney's Cochise, after being identified as one of the captains of Cochise: "Cullah, born about 1825, had succeeded Yaque as chief of one group and survived the smallpox epidemic of 1862. He accompanied Taza to Washington in 1876 and headed a small Chokonen group to San Carlos in 1877." If indeed born in 1825, he would be in his early 60's in 1886, he man identified in the Fly image as Kutli, Colle, Cullah etc.. does not seems to be 60, at least to me... What do you guys think?  |
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Post by jeroen on Aug 3, 2010 5:07:45 GMT -5
On june 23, 1885, scouts led by Chatto, attacked a rancheria north of Opoto, captured a number of women and children and wounded one warrior, Cathle, identified in Kraft's Lt. Charles Gatewood & His Apache Memoir, as a Chokonen member of Naiche's band.
Do we know a bit more about Astoyeh? The only info I have is that he was much younger than Colle, he survived Alabama and Fort Sill and in 1913 chose to go to Mescalero...
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Post by shan on Aug 4, 2010 9:20:34 GMT -5
naiches2
once again---3 times today--- I find myself agreeing with someone's assessment about the identity of a particular man, in this case
I don't think there can any doubt that this is one and the same man, but I'm wondering about the dating of the 1876 image. I've seen it somewhere before, is a much bigger picture and do you know where it was taken and if it really was taken in 1876?
If it was, he aged very little in that ten years, and he most definitely doesn't look like a sixty year old man.
Low Dog
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 4, 2010 14:34:38 GMT -5
naiches2 once again---3 times today--- I find myself agreeing with someone's assessment about the identity of a particular man, in this case I don't think there can any doubt that this is one and the same man, but I'm wondering about the dating of the 1876 image. I've seen it somewhere before, is a much bigger picture and do you know where it was taken and if it really was taken in 1876? If it was, he aged very little in that ten years, and he most definitely doesn't look like a sixty year old man. Low Dog This picture is one of a series of photographs taken during the trip the delegation of Apaches running John Clum to Washington in 1876. On it you can read in the book by Woodworth Clum 'Apache Agent' or article by John Clum 'Apache as Thespians'. |
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Post by jeroen on Aug 5, 2010 10:49:41 GMT -5
Still, he does not look 60 plus..., I guess Sweeney's estimate is a bit off mark, perhaps he was born about 1835...
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Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:29:35 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper.
It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs.
Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs.
Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members.
When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them.
Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles.
I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important.
I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely,
Siggy Jumper
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