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Post by kayitah on Jun 18, 2010 3:22:49 GMT -5
Hi shan, you're right, there are two slightly different versions of the famous image of Perico, Geronimo, Naiché, and Fun. Below are both versions. Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 18, 2010 3:23:49 GMT -5
and the second version... Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 18, 2010 3:33:19 GMT -5
BTW, does anyone have the Fort Marion images of Chihuahua's and Ulzana's band in good quality high-reslution? All I have is certain parts of the photographs or poor full versions. I would highly appreciate it if anyone would share it. Thanks a lot.
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Post by jeroen on Jun 18, 2010 3:37:10 GMT -5
I have the same ones as you, I too would love tohave better quality photographs of the Chihuahua and Ulzana band. As for the Geronimo and Naiche on horseback images posted above, I seen both countless times but never realized they are actually two slightly different versions! Thanks!
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Post by shan on Jun 18, 2010 4:26:47 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for posting those images and clearing up the confusion. It's great to see the two versions together, there is in fact very little difference in them, but if one looks closely, the look on the baby's face is different, and in one version Fun looks a little more fed up with having to stand there while this mad white mad fiddles with his big box. Another thing, I never noticed that persons head in the background.
Nice to to see the man on the rock in the other photo, I've never seen him in any other version of this photo, anyone any idea who he might be? Great scan by the way.
Several pages back someone, jeroen I think, asked who the man was in the second, less published photo of the peace talks, I think there can be little doubt that the man is Kulli Cullah or Collie, differing spelling of names for the same man. He appears to be dressed in the same head band and clothing as he wears in the group photo he's in, you can also see his bare legs and the low, maybe rolled down moccasins he wears in that group photo.
jeroen, forgive me I'm still a little confused, are you saying that Jolsanny was in fact Ulzanna's son, and that they are not one and the same person?
And finally, has anyone got a good scan of the third long distant image of Geronimo's band? It's the one that is not often reproduced, the one where they are all on foot and the three warriors in front standing with Geronimo and Natches have their guns stood in front or to the side of them, butts on the ground, whilst the warriors in the background are all standing.
thanks for your help.
Low Dog
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Post by kayitah on Jun 18, 2010 5:07:39 GMT -5
The first one that comes to mind when I look at the man with the rifle is one of Chihuahua's men, identfied as Eskinye in the Fort Marion image. That's only an idea! A sidenote to the Fort Marion photographs - In the men's photo, 'Eskinye' is the man above. In the group image, 'Es-kin-ye' is the man otherwise identified as 'Wa-ke-ya'. In the group photo, 'Wa-ke-ya' is an entirely different individual... That brings up the question, how legitimate the 'identification' of Jo-sa-na (Josanie/Ulzana) really is... Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Jun 18, 2010 11:02:47 GMT -5
Shan, There was a son of Ulzana named Johlsany, later known as Richard Johlsanny. He worked, among many others, with Eve Ball for her books. Eugene Chihuahua, Eve Ball's Indeh, stated that his cousin, Ulzana's son, was shot and killed by Apache scouts serving in the US Army. This must be another son (I have not found his name yet). This was in the attack on Chihuahua's village in the summer of 1885. I am convinced that the subsequent actions by Ulzana, the so called "Ulzana's raid" of november 1885, was not a random act of terror, so seen by many historians, nor a quest for ammo, horses and supplies. In Chiricahua society it was an almost sacred obligation to avenge the death of friends and relatives, and if Ulzana's son indeed was killed, it seems obvious he was chosen to be the leader of the revenge party and their main objective was to move all the way up to Fort Apache and attack the White Mountain Apache (for they had supplied many of the scouts). And this is what they did. It is tempting to conclude that the members of Ulzana's party are among those photographed in Fort Marion several months later. As for the name, I think that Ulzanna and Johlsanny are actually different spellings of the same name...
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Post by shan on Jun 19, 2010 8:09:22 GMT -5
Having had my interest aroused by all these discussions I've been re-reading through what few books I have on Geronimo's band, { are there any particular books any of you would recommend on this subject? } and something that had never occurred to me came up.
Most of the men we have been discussing or trying to name on this board are those we see in those Fly photographs of the surrender talks with Gen. Crook, so here's the question, how many of these men were amongst the 23 warriors who finally surrendered to Miles some time later. Does anyone have a list of the names of those that finally surrendered with Geronimo?
Low Dog
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Post by shan on Jun 24, 2010 10:05:40 GMT -5
Can I ask again in case somebody out there does have the information, how many of the men we have been discussing or trying to name on this board, I'm thinking here of the ones in the Fly photographs of the surrender talks with Gen. Crook, were amongst the 23 warriors who finally surrendered to Miles some time later. Does anyone have a list of the names of those that finally surrendered with Geronimo so that we can compare?
thanks, Low Dog
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Post by naiches2 on Jun 24, 2010 11:13:20 GMT -5
Can I ask again in case somebody out there does have the information, how many of the men we have been discussing or trying to name on this board, I'm thinking here of the ones in the Fly photographs of the surrender talks with Gen. Crook, were amongst the 23 warriors who finally surrendered to Miles some time later. Does anyone have a list of the names of those that finally surrendered with Geronimo so that we can compare? thanks, Low Dog You need look carefully at Kilthdigai's thread Reply #3 on Jun 8, 2010, 6:44pm by Jeroen and Reply #11 on Jun 10, 2010, 6:54am by kayitah. Or look at book by Angie Debo Geronimo
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Post by jeroen on Jun 26, 2010 2:07:47 GMT -5
A few can readily be identified, like Daklugie and Jason Betzinez in center back row, and James Kaywaykla in front (reclining)...
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Post by jeroen on Jul 5, 2010 1:05:50 GMT -5
Here is another Carlisle image, of a young woman with her son: All I have, is her name: Annette...
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Post by jeroen on Jul 5, 2010 1:06:51 GMT -5
The id says son, but the child may well be a girl...
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Post by jeroen on Jul 10, 2010 2:03:39 GMT -5
Another one, I only have his name as Chah, a Warm Springs Apache... Does anybody have information about this man?
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Post by naiches2 on Jul 11, 2010 16:48:33 GMT -5
Maybe anyone have ideas about who is this men? It can be Apache scouts?
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