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Post by naiches2 on May 10, 2015 12:18:19 GMT -5
Looking at the historical details outlined by Naiches, I think that he makes an EXCELLENT point that Chihuahua and Ulzanna (aka Jolsannie) were probably two of the VERY BEST Apache warriors in their generation. There's good evidence to argue that they were significantly better than Geronimo. It's quite possible that some of their success in their raids came from the fact that Ulzanna had served in the Apache Scouts. Therefore, he knew the exact methods that were being used to track him. dT Sorry, but I do not think that these brothers were the VERY best warriors. Of course, they were farsighted and successful, but the most successful (that is, those who killed and robbed more than white-eyed people), said little about their victories, especially in prison.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 15:52:01 GMT -5
I think dT is like 13 yrs old!!! Look how Naiches2 just bitch slapped you for trying to put words in his mouth!!!!!
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Post by Mithlo on May 10, 2015 20:05:00 GMT -5
I'm Chiricahua Fort Sill Apache and these two..Chihuahua and his brother Jolsanny were long-ago relatives of mine....and I have to agree with DT on this one....they WERE two of the VERY BEST (along with a few others) during their time. Now....no one on this forum has to agree nor disagree with anyone....we can all have our own opinions.....but it is to "Cross-The-Line" to turn to Hatefulness, Rudeness, and Sarcasm!!!!..............E N O U G H ! ! ! !
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Post by dT on May 10, 2015 20:46:30 GMT -5
Naices ... you did a very fine job of putting together the strategy of Chihuahua and Ulzanna. I think you have described the truth well, and what happened is consistent with what Geronimo said in later testimony. Geronimo often complained that many deaths were blamed on him, but he did not do the killings. Now we see clearly - he was telling the TRUTH. Indeed, it does appear that Chihuahua and Ulzanna were responsible for the lion's share of the fatalities in the final raids of the Apache Wars. And you have correctly summarized the state of affairs, although the original quote came from a man in the newspapers. There warriors were perhaps the fiercest and strongest fighters that America has ever produced. How ironic that they never received recognition for this - from America. They are occasionally portrayed in Hollywood movies, But NEVER accurately. Above all, what stands out about warriors such as Chihuahua, Ulzanna and Geronimo - was the highly detailed knowledge that they had about the lands, the water sources, and the mountains in Arizona, New Mexico and Mexico. But these Apaches had NO maps. Everything that they knew about the land had to be drawn completely from memory. So their ability to record all the diverse features of the landscape in their own heads, and then to remember them when needed, was remarkable.
RedPaint - NO. The opposite. I am old and experienced. I do not mind if people throw out criticisms on blogs. I am thick skinned, it does not bother me. I draw my conclusions in a different way. I understand that many other people here will try to re-construct the truth from historical accounts. And that's OK - that is research. But for me, I ACTUALLY GO to the places that the Apaches lived, fought and prayed. When you understand the land there, you begin to understand the people. Arizona is a very beautiful place, but a very FIERCE land. The heat during summer is intense. If you look at the old accounts from the days of the US Cavalry, they had days when the temperature was above 120 degrees. Those kinds of temperatures can easily KILL a man. I have experienced those temperatures in the California desert, and it DID almost kill me once. And that was when I had plenty of water to drink. So the Apache warriors had to cross these lands, sometimes on horseback, and sometimes on foot. And they had to KNOW those trails EXACTLY, and they had to KNOW their water sources EXACTLY. Because it only took one mistake - and a man was dead. The accomplishments of Geronimo, Cochise, Chihuahua and Ulzanny are TRULY GREAT accomplishments. You just have to really understand the land where they lived, to appreciate what they did!
dT
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Post by naiches2 on May 11, 2015 4:35:30 GMT -5
I think dT is like 13 yrs old!!! Look how Naiches2 just bitch slapped you for trying to put words in his mouth!!!!! Perhaps you did not understand what I said. Your English is not good enough.
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Post by naiches2 on May 11, 2015 4:45:04 GMT -5
dt! I do not mean to offend you, of course. I would like to say that I personally are very cute Chihuahua and Ulzana, so I researched their life history. But the ability is too little information about the life of the brothers, and the lives of their tribesmen. If they talked about their deeds openly... I have a few sources, so I can't make a definitive conclusion. I can only assume that they were better than other men.
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Post by dT on May 11, 2015 14:42:47 GMT -5
Naiches ... let me explain my reasoning. And I am rarely offended.
The PROOF is in the events that unfolded. I have only to take your basic facts. You stated that when the Apaches left San Carlos, they soon separated. This means that Chihuahua and Ulzanna (and their band) separated from Geronimo and his group.
The separation is interesting. A tribal argument is very believable. Geronimo sometimes used underhanded ways to try to force people to join his rebellion. This could explain why Chihuahua and Ulzanna thought about killing him. It is very interesting that Geronimo separated quickly. YES, he might have been worried that Ulzanna really WOULD kill him. So that says something right there. But equally, Geronimo did something very cunning. He departed extremely quickly. This means that when Gatewood showed up with the pursuit, his attention focused on Chihuauhua. WHY? Because their tracks were the freshest. So Geronimo used Chihuahua as a diversion.
THIS GETS US TO THE MAIN POINT. Therefore, Gatewood's men (Cavalry) now went in direct pursuit of Chihuahua and Ulzanna. OK, Gatewood was determined and reasonably skilled. But he was not the main problem. However, Gatewood was accompanied by a large group of Apache Scouts. And these people were tracking Chihuahua and Ulzanna throughout their escape route. The Apache Scouts were a major problem for Ulzanna, because they were expert trackers and they knew ALL of the tricks used by the Chiricahuas (or most of them). Therefore, a battle of wits and survival developed out there in Arizona.
Put yourself in the place of Ulzanna. HOW do you get weapons? You don't have any, or very few!! You have just escaped from the San Carlos Reservation. You have NO ammunition, NO guns (or very few), and you also have very limited food and water. Your only choice is to STEAL weapons and supplies - by constant raids on white ranches in the area. And this is exactly what Ulzanna and Chihuahua did. They staged constant raids, while simultaneously being pursued by Gatewood and many Apache Scouts.
THIS MEANS that Chihuahua and Ulzanna were SO STRONG and CUNNING ... that they staged a whole series of raids while being constantly pursued by the best trackers in Arizona. They systematically defeated a large number of well-armed ranchers (who were well aware that Apache renegades were in the area), and stole their weapons and supplies.
And as you stated yourself, ALL of this was accomplished with virtually NO LOSSES to the warriors who accompanied Ulzanna. And on top of that, Ulzanna managed to kill 38 people and remain constantly strong and vigilant.
From the point of view of guerilla warfare, what Ulzanna did was a REMARKABLE ACCOMPLISHMNENT! He was being constantly hunted, during the whole time he was a fugitive. That did not stop him!
Yes, I understand that the Apache Wars were ruthless and brutal. I do not condone the killings that went on. But the degree of skill, strength and cunning that Ulzanna showed during those raids - was extremely high. His record speaks for itself.
AND FINALLY - there is one other possibility. When Gatewood turned his men and went to follow Chihuahua and Ulzanna ... it's possible that was no accident. Maybe the Apache Scouts knew which way that Ulzanna had gone. Maybe they knew the tracks from Ulzanna's horse, or maybe they knew the tracks from his moccasins. So if the Scouts told Gatewood that Ulzanna went east instead of south ... then Gatewood made a deliberate decision to hunt down Ulzanna and not Geronimo? WHY? Because Gatewood knew all of the personalities of these people. So he must have judged that Ulzanna posed the biggest danger to white settlers in Arizona. And as it turned out ... he was right!!! BUT STILL Gatewood could not catch Ulzanna! It was a battle of wits, and Ulzanna was more cunning than anyone.
MUCH of what I am saying is guesswork, and we will never know for sure. But it fits the facts.
dT
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Post by dT on May 11, 2015 21:58:08 GMT -5
and if you are looking for the BEST warrior .. there would be a lot of arguments. But amongst the Apaches the man named Fun seems to be highly respected by everyone. And there is the belief that he saved the lives of a lot of people during the fighting. But there is not much written anywhere about Fun. and later in captivity his life became tragic and he killed himself. Such a shame.
dT
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Post by jasper4 on May 16, 2015 14:25:18 GMT -5
I'm Chiricahua Fort Sill Apache and these two..Chihuahua and his brother Jolsanny were long-ago relatives of mine....and I have to agree with DT on this one....they WERE two of the VERY BEST (along with a few others) during their time. Now....no one on this forum has to agree nor disagree with anyone....we can all have our own opinions.....but it is to "Cross-The-Line" to turn to Hatefulness, Rudeness, and Sarcasm!!!!..............E N O U G H ! ! ! ! I most strongly agree with my CUZ. We are not schoolyard children. As for a russian writing about my kin. I have my own views as to what is written in books, yet value his observations. And DT has become as a brother to me in private messages. FYI Enjun is a greeting not my name DT. My Cuz speaks better than I. Yet the attributes of many NDE warriors go unwritten about such as Juan Jose and Magoosh and others who predate the era of gringo lies and imprisonment of the Chiricahua.
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Geronimo's decendant
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Post by Geronimo's decendant on Aug 13, 2015 0:47:07 GMT -5
anything u can send me would be greatly appreciated. Never went heavily into my Apache heritage but have know certain things for as long as I can remember. I know I can look things up online but u seem to dig deep. So anything u can tell me as fact would be gravely appreciated. If needed I can give u my kik or email. Ty
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 13, 2015 14:38:04 GMT -5
anything u can send me would be greatly appreciated. Never went heavily into my Apache heritage but have know certain things for as long as I can remember. I know I can look things up online but u seem to dig deep. So anything u can tell me as fact would be gravely appreciated. If needed I can give u my kik or email. Ty OK. Tell me what you need to be more specific.
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Post by dT on Aug 15, 2015 23:41:00 GMT -5
these discussions have been helpful. they have revealed the truth. it was said by the White Soldiers that during the negotiations with Geronimo (the final surrender), that things were very tense. and fighting could have broken out at any time. Now we see that what happened is that Ulzana (Jolsanny) arrived at that place with his men. And it was the warriors with Ulzana that made the situation very tense, because they were very hostile. So the reports from the history of the Surrender of Geronimo can be understood better.
dT
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Post by dT on Aug 16, 2015 22:28:07 GMT -5
this is not my business, others here can comment. but I suggest that you ignore all the "claims" made by people trying to seek fame. who cares?? it is irrelevant.
the genuine Apaches I know are living quietly, praying in the sacred areas, alone or in small numbers, with truth in their hearts. and this is the right thing to do.
the Earth is in danger now. the scientists studying climate have already warned many times - changes in rain, storms and the oceans are happening. many biologists who study life have said - animal species are becoming extinct rapidly. how can this be good? and the leaders do nothing about this?!!
it is better to be humble, pray, and walk with truth.
best wishes, dT
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Post by jasper4 on Aug 17, 2015 13:45:23 GMT -5
this is not my business, others here can comment. but I suggest that you ignore all the "claims" made by people trying to seek fame. who cares?? it is irrelevant. the genuine Apaches I know are living quietly, praying in the sacred areas, alone or in small numbers, with truth in their hearts. and this is the right thing to do. the Earth is in danger now. the scientists studying climate have already warned many times - changes in rain, storms and the oceans are happening. many biologists who study life have said - animal species are becoming extinct rapidly. how can this be good? and the leaders do nothing about this?!! it is better to be humble, pray, and walk with truth. best wishes, dT I agree and all kin of either can be traced at fort sill or at mescalero. I think anyhting on facebook is suspect, and some folks have to have important kin to validate their own existence. Yet I think neither one is really so again good luck.
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Post by naiches2 on Nov 19, 2015 14:03:05 GMT -5
New info about Apache names (From antropological notes of the interviews of Asa Daklugie and Eugene Chihuahua): Chihuahua - Tłá•’í•’ez - “To push something under something else with your foot”. Jolsanne/Ulzana - Ozaní’(Daklugie): “Tanned buckskin”; Eugene Chhuahua says it means nothing, being just a name, but that Ozani was called Bį•sópàn which means “Big Buckskin”.
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