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Post by kayitah on May 21, 2010 16:36:35 GMT -5
True, it would make sense if it was Jozhe. We'll see when we can compare him with a photograph taken at Carlisle.
I have that publication by Jay van Orden, too, but didn't look at it for quite some time now. Good observation, Perico.
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Post by perico on May 22, 2010 9:55:43 GMT -5
If you look at the group picture of the men in Chihuahua's bunch, the man identified as Colle, looks alot like the man identified as Colle in Jay Van Orden's publication. I'll keep working on the Jozhe deal.
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Post by jeroen on May 24, 2010 10:23:38 GMT -5
In his book "The Geronimo campaign" Odie Faulk mentions also that three men and three women at the last minute refused to surrender with Naiche and Geronimo at Fort Bowie and fled back to Mexico. He says that all were soon killed by Mexican soldiers, exept for one woman (although I have been unable to check that statement). If indeed six Chiricahuas went back to Mexico, it gives us a little room for several men that we can not account for in the Chihuahua group, the SanCarlos/Fort Apache group and the Naiche/Geronimo band...
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Post by perico on May 26, 2010 10:25:48 GMT -5
Ok after a little research, Kutli went with Chihuahua's group to St Augustine. This leads me to believe that Kutli and Colle are one and the same person. The man identified as Colle in the St Augustine picture very closely resembles a man named Colle in the Canyon De Los Embudos pictures.
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Post by naiche on May 29, 2010 9:28:12 GMT -5
Chief Naiche E. A. Burbank : Elbridge Ayer Burbank 1897 Apache Ft. Sill, Oklahoma Territory Oil Painting Courtesy: The Denver Art Museum Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Jun 1, 2010 2:14:55 GMT -5
In his notes Burbank says that Naiche told him that he was shot through the chest, the bullet going straight through... Does anyone knows in which fight this took place?
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Post by kayitah on Jun 1, 2010 17:11:01 GMT -5
I just came about an image of (supposedly) giles lancey at carlisle - and I think HE is the mysterious Chiricahua! Unfortunately, I don't have any other images of Lancey, but comparing lips, nose and eyes seem identical to me. What do others think? Attachments:
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Post by naiches2 on Jun 2, 2010 2:14:36 GMT -5
I just came about an image of (supposedly) giles lancey at carlisle - and I think HE is the mysterious Chiricahua! Unfortunately, I don't have any other images of Lancey, but comparing lips, nose and eyes seem identical to me. What do others think? Hallo kayitah! It's very interesting version. |
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Post by perico on Jun 2, 2010 9:50:29 GMT -5
In his notes Burbank says that Naiche told him that he was shot through the chest, the bullet going straight through... Does anyone knows in which fight this took place? Jeroen, I was wondering where you got your info on the 1884 pictures of Naiche and his wife Ecleheh. She is often identified as Haozinne, but I always thought it was Ecleheh. Ive only seen her identified as Ecleheh once in a museum. Where is the source for your info? |
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Post by perico on Jun 2, 2010 9:52:16 GMT -5
I just came about an image of (supposedly) giles lancey at carlisle - and I think HE is the mysterious Chiricahua! Unfortunately, I don't have any other images of Lancey, but comparing lips, nose and eyes seem identical to me. What do others think? I have never heard of Lancey Giles before, do you have any info on him? |
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Post by naiches2 on Jun 2, 2010 15:42:09 GMT -5
I get a little here: nativenet.uthscsa.edu/pipermail/nn-dialogue/2004-April/000922.htmlGiles Lancey is with his mother at Mt. Vernon Barracks. She is very happy because he is at home and can help her. He reports the deaths of Amy and Joan, who were sick and went with him to Mt. Vernon. and nativenet.uthscsa.edu/pipermail/nn-dialogue/2003-January/000957.htmlFrom Miss Stevens' letter published in the *Southern Workman* we are pleased to be able to quote the following in relation to our boys and girls sent to their homes at Mt. Vernon Barracks, Ala., where the Apache prisoners are held:
"It was a great help to have Giles Lancy, a returned Carlisle boy to
interpret for me and help in the singing. The influence of the Carlisle
boys and girls among their people has been very good. Mollie, an Indian woman has a very nice baby, and through Elsie's influence, a little (Carlisle) girl, she has made neat white slips and has almost abandonedthe papoose basket."
Miss Stevens is one of the Missionary teachers at Mt. Vernon.
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Post by jeroen on Jun 2, 2010 23:41:34 GMT -5
Perhaps, it could be the same man. Are you sure the Carlisle image is of Lancey? I know adult men were also sent to Carlisle, but somehow the quotes posted by Naiches suggest that Lancey was a younger person, while the tall man in the Fly photos appears older.
Perico, like you I have always doubted the Haozinne identification, simply because the woman in the 1884 images does not look like her. So it must be either Ecleheh or Nadeyole. Since Dorothy Naiche, a daughter of Ecleheh, was photographed on the same occasion, it would make sense that she came with her mother. Also, there were two photos taken of Naiche with his wife on that occasion and I have seen the alternative image in a publication (don't recall which one) with the woman identified as E clah heh. Finally, I bought the photo at an art show, many years ago (well before internet made life so much easier), along with it was a note identifying the woman as Etl'ade, likely an alternative spelling of Ecleheh. So I am pretty certain that this is a postive identification.
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Post by shan on Jun 6, 2010 10:49:50 GMT -5
kayitah,
It seems to me from those two photos that giles lancey is indeed the mystery man in white. Every physical feature seems to fit, the mouth especially, the chin, cheekbones and the face in general are very similar in both photos.
My only quibble would be that giles lancey looks a bit young than the man in white, but then he---the man in white--- was photographed whilst out raiding, and had as a result been recently exposed to harsh weather conditions, whereas at the time he was photgraphed giles lancey would be spending a deal of his time indoors. All in all a very good fit in my opinion.
Low Dog
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Post by jeroen on Jun 7, 2010 1:22:28 GMT -5
Perico,
The publication in which the photograph of Naiche and his wife is published and the wife being identified as E clah heh, is "Women of the Apache nation" by Henrietta Stockel, 1991 University of Nevada Press p.67.
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Post by kayitah on Jun 7, 2010 2:40:39 GMT -5
Thank you for your contribution, shan. Unfortunately, I don't know the birthdate of Lancey. He was probably in his mid-twenties. Below is part of an image which shows the unidentified Chiricahua and Fun. It seems that the darker shade of Fly's images makes them rather dull and gives the individuals a bit of a "rougher" or "more seasoned" appearance. Not all his images are like this (for example, the one with Naiché, Geronimo, Perico, and Fun has more contrast to it). Is there anyone who has all the Fly photographs in high-resoultion quality? Or is there a website who has them? (I actually have the booklet with all C.S. Fly photographs from the Geronimo Campaign, but the prints are rather small and scanning and resizing doesn't help either...) Attachments:
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