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Post by charlie on Jun 17, 2009 5:06:46 GMT -5
Grahamew: our mysterious man IS NOT NAICHE! There are a lot of images of him for make a comparison, but i'm sure that he is another person.
Jeroen: what is the exact position of Naiche in your photo? At the extreme right of Geronimo, of profile?
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 17, 2009 11:19:40 GMT -5
Charlie asked me to post these pictures:  (here is an even larger version of the photo: 2,2 MB): www.american-tribes.com/messageboards/dietmar/Apaches2.jpgCharlie´s questions are: 1. Who are the other warriors in the famous photo of “Canyon de los Embudos”? 2. And which is the position of Naiche, if is was present? Also, here are two photos of our “mysterious man in white”:   Thank you for the photos, Charlie!! |
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 17, 2009 11:48:18 GMT -5
I must admit I´m not an expert for Apache history, but these are the identifications I have of two other Fly photos:  (*SIRIS) left to right: Yanozha (Geronimos´s brother-in-law), Chappo (Geronimo´s son of 2nd wife), Fun (Yanozha´s half brother), Geronimo  (*SIRIS) left to right: Perico (Geronimo´s cousin), Geronimo, Naiche, Tsisnah Don´t know exactly where I got these names from. I know that the Archives of the Smithsonian identify the man standing far right as Fun: Perico and Fun identified by Bryan Jones (April 22, 2008), great great grandson of Perico and Cultural Coordinator for the Fort Sill Apache Tribe of Oklahoma. |
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Post by charlie on Jun 18, 2009 4:16:49 GMT -5
Dietmar: in your first photo, the third man starting from left is not FUN but (very probably) TSISNAH. In your second photo, the man standing far right in surely FUN.
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Post by shan on Jun 18, 2009 9:32:04 GMT -5
Hello,
I just like to agree with those that point out that the man standing next to Geronimo in the first photo Dietmar posted is definitely not Fun, he is a man that I have always known as Jolsanny, although I see that several people have now named him as Tsisnah, whatsmore, they have further mistakenly identified the man standing next to Natches in the photo where he is mounted on a mule, as Tsisneh, when he is in fact Fun.
Both Fun and Jolsany or Tsisnah, can be seen together in several of the photos already posted on the board, so there can be no doubt that they were two very different men. Fun can be seen standing next to Geronimo in the photograph where the warriors all face Fly's camera, and there, in one of these, the man named Jolsany or Tsisneh, can be seen standing third from the left in the back row. Both of them are also in another photo which grahamew posted, this time we see Fun mounted in the back row, and Jolsany standing second from the left in the second row.
Just to confuse matters even more, I have seen the man I know as Jolsany, named Ulzana by some, I would appreciate it if they could point me back to he evidence for this?. Confusion too in a photo on page 1 of this thread, the one where the 3 men standing with Geronimo are named as Nanne, Ozone, Chihuahua, and Loco. In my opinion the man named as Loco is actually Fun, and the man named Ozone is actually Loco.
Finally, a couple of questions. Given that neither man is present in either of the train photographs, { I would argue that that’s not Fun seating extreme left in one of them,} does anyone know what happened to either of them after the surrender? The other question concerns all those wonderful photographs Fly took. Does anyone know how many he took, or if there are any that just never get published because they are either too fuzzy or just not good enough? I have seen one attributed to him which is a long long distance shot of some apaches and a few ponies clustered around a few crude brush shelters, but even using a zoom it is hard to make anything out.
Finally, in my humble opinion that is not the same man; the close ups of Charlie's mystery man in white, the face seems somewhat different, on the other hand, looking at it again . . . .I’m not so sure. Incidentally, he can been seen standing very prominently to the left of Geronimo, with Natchez mounted behind them both, in a third photo I seen of the gathered warriors facing the camera.
Low Dog
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Post by shan on Jun 18, 2009 10:18:00 GMT -5
I meant to say a real thank you to Diane and Dietmar for setting up this wonderful board. It's a veritable treasure trove of information and images, for which I'd also like to thank all the people who contribute.
I'd also like to take this opportunity, {I've been having real problems for some months now, in managing to get what I write in these spaces to actually register, to post,} to ask a question which I've previously pestered Diane and Dietmar with, which is, does anyone know when and where the famous Low Dog died, and where he was buried. I ask this question again because there are now so many new Native Americans posting on the board, all of whom I'd like to welcome, some of who may have some information that I have been unable to lay my hands on.
Low Dog
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Post by grahamew on Jun 19, 2009 1:48:35 GMT -5
 n.d.  Fort Sill, pre-1900  n.d.  St Louis Exposition |
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Post by jeroen on Jun 19, 2009 6:29:39 GMT -5
Finally got alarger picture of Naiche in the second council picture... I still think the man sitting behind Geronimo's left is Conception rather than Cayetano... Geronimo specifically asked Conception to be his translator so it makes sense he is sitting close by. Crook agreed but said he wanted the other translators to check all that was said... I also wonder who the two warriors in the back are and why they are not in the first picture. Geronimo is obviously sitting in front of two others, they seem like warriors, perhaps Kayatennae, or the other two translators present...  Also, I agree with Low Dog that the warrior often identified as Fun is not him, and I doubt it is Tsisnah either, but rather Johlsanny. Sometimes the names Johlsanny and Ulzana are getting mixed up, but Johlsanny was a son of Ulzana, an older brother of Chihuahua and the leader of the famous November 1885 raid, in which Johlsanny also rode... Charlie, I really think the two pictures of our unidentified white warrior show one and the man, the features (particularly the mouth) look much alike. The whole council lasted three days, although Geronimo and Crook only met on the 25th and the 27th... My guess is that Fly took the council photos on the 25th and went to the Apache camp in the following days, which may well explain why several Apaches actually wear different clothes (see our mysterious friedn, Naiche, Fun etc) Really love the new pics Grahame, especially the second one is new to me... |
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Post by jeroen on Jun 19, 2009 6:36:29 GMT -5
I also got a few more...   This one was taken during the inaugural parade of president Teddy Roosevelt.  |
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Post by charlie on Jun 19, 2009 11:42:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the identification of CAYETANO and TSISNAH: I can be agree that the first is CONCEPTION, but I don't think that the "probably" Tsisnah is Jolsany (Ulzana's son); they are near in the council's photo and looks at the same age, not father and son... Very interesting the identification of NAICHE, that I did not know. And the warrior exactly behind Geronimo, seeds hidden (marked with  ? by Jeroen) who shall be? My head is bursting!!! |
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Post by grahamew on Jun 19, 2009 12:18:25 GMT -5
Nice to see Quanah in that Roosevelt parade photo! I'll repost it in the relevant thread.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jun 19, 2009 17:02:40 GMT -5
did you guys notice that geronimo holds on, on all the Fly pix to his old springfield early '60 model while all the young ladds have winchester repeating rifles? why?
on the arrows and bow in the pix , they are typical apache even in 1900, wonder where he got the reed in fort sill.
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Post by jeroen on Jun 23, 2009 3:57:52 GMT -5
I came across this picture of Naiche, had not seen it before and don't know where and when it was taken, nor by whom.  Perhaps we should start a new thread on Naiche. In my opinion his role and position has long been underrated. In addition, as a son of Cochise and a grandson of Mangas Coloradas, plus his relations by blood and marriage to many other important Chiricahuas, he deserves a biography written by a prominent historian. Also, looking forward to any other unusual Naiche photographs... |
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 23, 2009 13:28:47 GMT -5
Yes, we should have an own thread of Naiche. Today I received the Geronimo book by Angie Debo (Oklahoma Press). Haven´t read it yet, but there are many good photographs in it. Debo commented the famous train photo as followed:  (*SIRIS) Identified without question: front row, from left, Fun, Perico, Naiche, Geronimo, Chappo, and the boy Garditha; second row: Yanozha next to Jasper Kanseah; fourth from left, Ahnandia; extreme right, Beshe. The women at the back, as identified by Jason Betzinez: from left, Ha-o-zinne, wife of Naiche,; Bi-ya-neta, stolen wife of perico; Nohchlon, wife of Chappo; Tah-das-te, wife of Ahnandia. It is known, however, that Betzinez made some errors in identifying the warriors. |
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 23, 2009 15:43:15 GMT -5
...another photo I wonder about. This is from Cowan´s auction site. It allegedly shows Apache scouts and U.S. troops, photographed by Buehmann. It is said at Cowan´s that Buehman is known to have photographed many of the Apache Reservations in the winter of 1875, and this image may have been taken then.  The man standing in the back row looks a lot like Geronimo, or am I mistaken?  |
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? by Jeroen) who shall be? My head is bursting!!!