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Post by naiches2 on Nov 6, 2010 14:36:25 GMT -5
Can anybody identify who is that first boy from the right of the children group , first left form Besh, please ? That's Alchintoyeh Estichinduntoya/Alchintoyeh — Nednai. Regis Alchintoyeh, age eight or nine. Son of E-jo-nah. First cousin of Sam Kenoi. Died at Apache, Okla., circa 1919-20. Hallo kayitah, Why you think that boy is Alchintoyeh? You have another thoto this boy?
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Post by jeroen on Dec 5, 2010 10:08:36 GMT -5
I am still wondering about this fellow, obviously a prominent man, and I am still trying to find out what his name was... Then it occurred to me he really looks like the man we talked about earlier in this thread (mouth, eye brows, jaw... and the inevitable hair ornament): What do you guys think?
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Post by kayitah on Dec 5, 2010 15:26:50 GMT -5
Wow, great observation! Looking at mouth/chin/nose it actually seems to be the same man! Also, look at the "double" medal around his neck...
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Post by coeurrouge on Dec 7, 2010 15:32:42 GMT -5
Hi,
This men seemed to be the same, but I don't think they were.
Look very carefully their nose, especially the end of it. On the Fly photo, the end of the nose looks more flat and big than the man on the Randall photo.
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Post by jeroen on Dec 8, 2010 12:16:41 GMT -5
Sorry coeurrouge, I don't agree, I am pretty sure it is one and the same man... although I can't prove it (yet), I guess that the identification on the Fort Marion image is correct. Until proven otherwise, I think this individual is Lancey (also spelled Len see), a member of Ulzana's raiding party in november/december 1885 and later sent to Carlisle.
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Post by kayitah on Dec 8, 2010 14:30:43 GMT -5
Interesting. Do you have all the names of Ulzana's raiding party?
There's already a picture of Lancey and Tsisnah while at Carlisle in these forums.
Even if the individual on the Fort Marion image actually is Lancey - some of them are clearly misidentified.
Both, Eskinye and Wa-ke-ya, are misidentified on one or both pictures. There are two names, but four different individuals...
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Post by jeroen on Dec 9, 2010 2:21:11 GMT -5
Several members of Ulzana's party are known; Ulzana, Fun, Lancey, Yanosha, Kanseah and Cullah and Azariquelch. Sweeney provides the names of the others as: Perico, Mohtsos, Tah ni toe, Atelinietze and Shoie. Cullah (spelled Cathla by sweeney) was shot in the leg early on and remained behind. The one member shot and killed by a White Mounatin Apache was Azariquelch, also known as Zachia.
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Post by naiches2 on Dec 9, 2010 6:29:34 GMT -5
I support coeurrouge because it is not obvious that this is one and the same person. Looks at hair ornament and double" medal, please. And compare with photo from Los Embudos. Attachments:
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Post by naiches2 on Dec 10, 2010 15:42:39 GMT -5
Our old friends Cuthle, Charlie and others in Fort Marion Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Dec 11, 2010 15:37:10 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this, Naiches! Where did you find it?
You're right, Cathle is the man at center, but Charlie isn't on the image. I have no idea who the other two are, though.
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Post by jeroen on Dec 13, 2010 6:37:18 GMT -5
Great image! Cathle is obvious, the other two look familiar also, but can't come up with names yet...
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Post by kayitah on Dec 13, 2010 15:01:13 GMT -5
2nd from left could be Laziyah, no idea about the boy or the man at far right. I've seen them before, but don't know who they are.
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Post by jeroen on Dec 15, 2010 12:53:48 GMT -5
Earlier this thread we've mentioned Nolgee, a leading Nedni and associate of Geronimo... they were both taken prisoner by Clum in 1877 (if we are to believe the agent)... I just read that Martine was his son... This being the case, I have come to doubt the story that has Geronimo wanting to shoot him and Kayitah as they came up as messengers for Gatewood in august 1886, only to be stopped by Yanozha, Fun and others... Probably yet another made up story to show Geronimo's treacherous character...
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Post by kayitah on Dec 15, 2010 15:35:35 GMT -5
Nolgee certainly was an impartant man. I think that the story about Geronimo threatening Kayitah and Martine can very well be true. Not to do Geronimo any injustice, but I think he may have been capable of that. I don't think Geronimo was a bad man, but I have come more and more to the oppinion that many of those courageous and honorable men that surrendered with him are principally inclined to peace, while Geronimo is a man of confrontation. He certainly was a much milder man that Kaetennae, though.
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Post by jeroen on Dec 19, 2010 8:59:01 GMT -5
I agree Geronimo was not a bad man (he was no saint either) but a man coping with very hard times as best as he could... I think that, after months of being hunted and chased over hundreds of miles, most members were willing to make peace, and in my opinion among them was Geronimo as well. His words and actions when meeting with Gatewood and the days following until actually meeting with Miles, indicate as much. He was an intelligent man and must have realized that wantonly killing the two envoys would end all options for peace. And Naiche would certainly have disapproved. Btw, Sweeney in his new book largely confirms my opinion that Naiche was far more important a chief than is usually assumed by many historians.
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