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Post by Dietmar on Jan 27, 2014 17:42:33 GMT -5
Hello Kayitah (and all), thank you for posting your pictures. I copied them to our server. Images cannot longer be attached to posts because we have limited space at this Proboard site. Please follow these intructions to post photos: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/850/post-photos?page=1&scrollTo=15713or send them per e-mail to me. I´m sorry about that, it is simply a technical problem. Greetings Dietmar
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Post by kayitah on Jan 27, 2014 17:52:22 GMT -5
Sorry Dietmar, I should have remembered that since you posted the instructions just recently *shameonme* Thank you for the reminder and for copying the pics to the server
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Post by kayitah on Jan 28, 2014 8:02:17 GMT -5
left: Mohtsos at Cañon de los Embudos, Sonora, Mexico. So far I had him as Besh, Haozinne's father, which is obviously wrong. The picture at center, which was also taken at the same occasion, clearly shows that it's the same man as in the images on the left.
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Post by kayitah on Feb 4, 2014 7:39:37 GMT -5
Hello everyone I have been wondering for some time who this man is and whether the photographer's information could be correct. I have never seen the kind of face paint he wears, and since photographs where Nde wear face paint are scarce anyway, I have no idea whether it says anything about his tribal affiliation. If I remember correctly, I asked the same question a couple years ago; back then no one was able to answer this. I thought to give it another chance, considering all the new information that came along in the meantime as well as new and knowledgeable board members. According to the photographer his name is "Ba-cluth (Roaming Coyote), Chiricahua Scout from Chato's Band". The photo was taken at the same time as the studio photographs of the Chiricahua women & children captured in August 1885 and sent to Fort Bowie (Neschila, Gazie, Huera among others) as well as two photos of Dutchy, one of Alchesay, Esh-kin-tsay-gizah aka Mike (White Mountain Apache scout from Alchesay's band) and a couple others. I was also wondering whether the name - Ba-cluth - could be Chiricahua dialect or not. Follow this link for a better view at Ba-cluth: cdm15330.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/36653/rec/1Any help/suggestion is highly appreciated. Thanks.
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juhl
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by juhl on Feb 12, 2014 19:37:09 GMT -5
The Apache with the painted face does however have Chiricahua boots (moccasins) with the typical flip point. The paint by our Chiricahuas however was usually a white stripe across the face over the bridge of the nose. I suspect this is an adaptation from some other Indian scouts of the US army who were also in the company of the Chiricahuas -- although few. Tarahumaras (raramuri) for example were used by the Mexican army against the Chiricahua as in the kiling of Victorio who incidentally is said to have been a mestizo from Coahila, Mexico kidnapped in a raid as a young boy according to the Mexican records where it all began. -- Juhl --
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Post by dT on Feb 13, 2014 12:32:29 GMT -5
"as in the kiling of Victorio who incidentally is said to have been a mestizo from Coahila, Mexico kidnapped in a raid as a young boy according to the Mexican records where it all began"
OK ... I think you said something pretty important there. I want to make sure I follow exactly what you're telling us. You're saying that Victorio was not a native-born Chiricahua, but instead he as actually a young Mexican boy who was adopted into the tribe? Can you also give any more background on his sister Lozen?
thanks, dT
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Post by cinemo on Feb 14, 2014 13:45:35 GMT -5
"as in the kiling of Victorio who incidentally is said to have been a mestizo from Coahila, Mexico kidnapped in a raid as a young boy according to the Mexican records where it all began"
Genealogy of Victorio
For that Question, please see these books :
Victorio: Apache Warrior and Chief, by Kathleen P. Chamberlain ( pages 27 – 30 )
The Conquest of Apacheria , by Dan L. Thrapp ( page 117 footnote 18 )
Cinemo
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Post by dT on Feb 14, 2014 17:48:21 GMT -5
OK thanks ... clearer now. Victorio is referred to as mestizo, meaning part European and part Indian. Ths probably means his mother was an Apache in Mexico, and father was Mexican. That would make a lot of sense, and would also be very clear about why the Chiricahuas adopted him and trusted him completely. But if he was adopted into the tribe, that would mean that Lozen was not his biological sister (or was she also adopted from Mexico)?
dT
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 15, 2014 9:18:19 GMT -5
About Biduye (aka Victorio)
the Mexicans always thought Victorio was born Mexican or a part of Mexican like US people thought Tecumseh, Sitting Bull or Chief Joseph were white or studied books of strategy because they defeated us army sometimes.
In Victorio's biographies, the mexican blood of Victorio was told but for written that it was NOT TRUE. Biduye was a full blood Chihenne-Chiricahua, certainly a son of a local group leader close of Delgadito by friendship or family link.
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Post by dT on Feb 15, 2014 13:18:52 GMT -5
thank you very much for your input.
So it seems there are various rumors that have been spread about Biduye (Victorio) and they are conflicting. I suppose it's not that surprising to have all these conflicts and rumors, especially after one person says something in a book. It would make most sense to me that Biduye was completely within the Chiricahua people because he took a place of great responsibility when the survival of the people was at stake.
dT
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Post by kayitah on Feb 27, 2014 10:10:35 GMT -5
To me it seems the man on the left is the same as in the other photos... Martin Kayitah. Sorry for the bad quality, the only one I have in high-res is the one on the right. Compare the chin, nose, cheek bones, lips (and dimples on both sides), overall expression... and he seems pretty tall too. According to U.S. Army/Government sources, Kayitah was between 5'8 and 5'10 (accounts vary). I'd be interested in your opinions. Thanks.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 3, 2014 16:00:28 GMT -5
The Apache with the painted face does however have Chiricahua boots (moccasins) with the typical flip point. The paint by our Chiricahuas however was usually a white stripe across the face over the bridge of the nose. I suspect this is an adaptation from some other Indian scouts of the US army who were also in the company of the Chiricahuas -- although few. Tarahumaras (raramuri) for example were used by the Mexican army against the Chiricahua as in the kiling of Victorio who incidentally is said to have been a mestizo from Coahila, Mexico kidnapped in a raid as a young boy according to the Mexican records where it all began. -- Juhl -- Very interesting, thanks a lot for this valuable information, Juhl.
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Post by dT on Mar 7, 2014 0:41:59 GMT -5
kayitah ... objectively. I can see your points you are making about the shape of the face and the high cheek bones. how about the top of the nose just under the eyebrows? could be ... I am a little uncertain there. I would say that the evidence is partly supporting your theory - maybe quite a lot. I don't know if you could say conclusively it is the same man. But then again really ... how certain can we be about any of these comparisons, with so few photo's? keep working on it - you are making progress!!
dT
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aspis
New Member
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Post by aspis on Jul 29, 2014 5:43:18 GMT -5
I agree with Fun, far right. The boy, second from left could be Garditha ? Abouth the picture with the white boy.
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Post by dT on Jul 29, 2014 12:44:42 GMT -5
kayitah ... BTW I think you identification of Chiva in both pix is correct.
good luck, dT
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