Lone Horn's Children

[hreinn]

Kingsley,
Thanks for this interesting answer.
These details are a pleasant surprise, but point to the direction I was thinking about.

Now we see at least part of the glue between Shunka Yuta Shni (Eat No Dogs) tiyoshpaye and Wakpokiyan (Flies Along the Creek) tiyoshpaye.
Which came with the marriage of Lone Horn from Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye to 3 daughters of White Painted Shield, from Wagmuha Sna wicoti of Shunka Yuta Shni tiyoshpaye.
This marriage of a Shunka Yuta Shni and Wakpokiyan persons and the following "unification", sheds a new light on the occasional association of Black Shield (Shunka Yuta Shni) and Lame Deer (Wakpokiyan).

If White Painted Shield (or his wife) from Shunka Yuta Shni was related to Hump (Chahahake/Čhaŋĥáĥake) who also belonged to Shunka Yuta Shni tiyoshpaye.
Then it would mean that the relation between Lone Horn and Hump was not a biological relation.
But instead, the relation between Lone Horn and Hump would be through the marriage of these 3 Shunka Yuta Shni women, i.e. Stands On Ground, Wind and Stiff Leg (daughters of White Painted Shield) to Lone Horn.

It would be interesting to know to what wicoti within Shunka Yuta Shni tiyoshpaye Hump belonged to and if Hump and White Painted Shield were related (which they most likely were).
See in the post below a short refreshment regarding Hump vs. High Backbone.

It would be interesting to know if Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman (or Under Water Woman) belonged to Shunka Yuta Shni tiyoshpaye.
I guess you know what that could mean
That would back up what Elaine Quiver said.


In your Mnikhówozu camp circle based on an interview with No Heart (who belonged to Shunka Yuta Shni tiyoshpaye).
There is a lodge between Shunka Yuta Shni and Wakpokiyan, which is marked as Big Belly (Nige-tanka), see below.



I guess this Big Belly (Nige-tanka) wicoti/tiyoshpaye represents the Wagmuha Sna wicoti of White Painted Shield.
Because as you said, White Painted Shield was a naca and the council of naca men (Naca Omnichiye/Načá Omníčiye) was nicknamed Big Bellies.
So it is appropriate to nickname White Painted Shield's wicoti as Big Belly.

If Nige Tanka (Big Belly) in No Heart's Mnikhówozu camp circle is actually Wagmuha Sna.
Then it is interesting to notice Lone Bull's statement in an interview with Donald Collier.
That the tiyoshpaye of Spotted Elk (a.k.a. Big Foot) was the Belly band, i.e. the Nige Tanka/Big Belly band of Miniconjou.
This opens a new window to look again at the information about Lone Horn's family in the field notes of Scudder Mekeel and Donald Collier, in interviews with Peter Stands (SM), Lone Bull (DC) and Walks Out (DC).
In short, if we add together information from these 2 field notes, we have the following people as siblings: Lone Horn, One Horn, Spotted Elk (aka. Big Foot), Feather Earring/Yellow Hair and a woman with an unknown name, who was a sister of Lone Horn, a wife of Charging Crow and a mother of Walks Out.
This is a different group of siblings than we are used to.
But it starts to make sense with your more detailed information about the Shunka Yuta Shni tiyoshpaye.
And if it turns out that Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman belonged to Shunka Yuta Shni, it opens a new dimension in linking of people, where we would finally be able to unravel critical family relations.
So every tiny detail about Shunka Yuta Shni is crucial.

Peter Stands said he belonged to "Big Foot's band".
If we accept that Big Foot and Lone Horn were brothers (same father, different mother) as Peter Stands said.
And if we accept that both Big Foot and Lone Horn were raised up in Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye.
Then it means that Big Foot married a woman who belonged to Wagmuha Sna, just as his brother Lone Horn did.
Because according to Lone Bull, Big Foot's band was Belly band, which seems to Wagmuha Sna wicoti.
Later Big Foot became the chief of Wagmuha Sna or the Big Belly tiyoshpaye or wicoti.
While his brother Lone Horn became the chief of Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye.

Peter Stands said his grandfather was "A chief of the kind that was carried in a blanket".
That could mean a naca.
Which fits to the status of White Painted Shield, who was a naca.
Peter Stands said his grandfather was a Mnikhówozu and so was White Painted Shield.
So !!! That would indicate that White Painted Shield was Peter Stands' grandfather and more precisely his maternal grandfather.
Because Peter Stands said his father was Mnikhowozu "and his name was Pte´ He´ and was of the cik cik sila band"
Therefore, Peter Stands' mother was a daughter of White Painted Shield.


3 questions regarding Roman Nose and White Painted Shield:
1. Was Roman Nose (a.k.a. They Are Afraid of His Shield) related to White Painted Shield ?
Just a stupid question because of the Shield - Shield correlation.
2. An even more stupid question is if White Painted Shield was Roman Nose's father ?
3. Was Roman Nose's wife related to White Painted Shield ?


After reading your post, it crossed my mind if the original idea of making peace with the Crows came from the naca White Painted Shield (Lone Horn's father-in-law), but not from Lone Horn.

[hreinn]

Here is a short refreshment regarding Hump vs. High Backbone to explain what Hump I am talking about in the post above.

From Ella Deloria's interview with Fast Whirlwind:
"Some of the foremost Teton chiefs in my young manhood were Hump, (Cakuhu Wakatuya--Back--high); Crazy Horse (Tasuke Witko); Hitukasa Waste (Good Weasel); Tasuke Kokipapi (They fear his horses), all these four were Oglala;
Cahahake (Spinal column); He Wazica (Single Horn)-- these two were M nikawozu (Planters-by-the-Water); and Tatakiyotako (Sitting Bull) and Pizi (Gall; Pi--liver; zi-yellow) were Hukpapaya."

To my best of knowledge, Fast Whirlwind is the only Lakota source from the Buffalo era who gives SIMULTANEOUSLY both male Lakota names in question and to what part of Lakota they belonged to.
Therefore, Fast Whirlwind is the key to unravel the confusion between Hump and High Backbone.

According to Fast Whirlwind above:
1. Cahahake / Čhaŋĥáĥake was Mnikhówozu
2. Cakuhu Wakatuya / Čhaŋkĥáhu Waŋkáta was Oglala

Today we use the following English names:
1. Hump for Cahahake / Čhaŋĥáĥake)
2. High Backbone for Cakuhu Wakatuya / Čhaŋkĥáhu Waŋkáta

Based on Fast Whirlwind, it is clear it was the Oglala Cakuhu Wakatuya = High Backbone who fought with Crazy Horse and Good Weasel against the Shoshones, where Cakuhu Wakatuya was killed.
It is confirmed by Alexander Charging Crow in his manuscript written in both Lakota and English, that it was Cakuhu Wakatuya who fought against and was killed by Shoshones.
In his manuscript in Lakota and English, Alex Charging Crow gives the name for High Backbone as "C'aŋk'u Waŋkatuya", "Back--high" and "High Breast".
Alexander Charging Crow was one of those who took part in the fight where High Backbone was killed by Shoshones.
So he knows what he is talking about.

Mainly based on Fast Whirlwind and to some extent based on Alex Charging Crow, this is certain to be correct:
1. There were 2 individuals with 2 related names, that is Hump (Cahahake) and High Backbone (Cakuhu Wakatuya)
2. Hump belonged to Mnikhówozu
3. High Backbone belonged to Oglala and was killed by Shoshones

Then, it seems we can add the following information:
1. The Mnikhówozu Hump belonged to Shunka Yuta Shni tiyoshpaye.
2. The Oglála High Backbone belonged to They Wear Garter Snakes for Earrings = Watersnake Earrings tiyoshpaye
3. Fast Whirlwind mentioned together Hump (Cahahake) and Lone Horn (He Wazica) as the foremost Mnikhówozu chiefs, so it is tempting to assume they were of the same generation.
High Backbone is often mentioned at the same time as Crazy Horse by various sources, so it is tempting to assume they were of the same generation.
Based on the known age of Crazy Horse and Lone Horn, it seems that the Mnikhówozu Hump was older than the Oglala High Backbone, roughly a generation older.

[grahamew]

Somewhere... admittedly, possibly Sandoz, there is a reference to Crazy Horse being a 'cub' (I think) in comparison to High Backbone's 'bear', thus implying that the High Backbone/Hump that Crazy Horse rode with was older - or would he have been associated with both thanks to his links with the Mnikhówozu and the stories have become conflated over time...?

Having said all that, I'm also pretty sure I've read testimony in which the informant said that High Backbone was a similar age to Crazy Horse in response to questions about their realtionship. Again, can't remember where, but I'd guess Hinman.

So how does the Hump photographed by Huffman fit in all of this? He's clearly a reasonably young man. The son of the Mnikhówozu Hump who was Lone Horn's generation? And this is the man who became a scout and then later a Ghost Dancer?

[kingsleybray]

thanks hreinn and grahamew. A lot of what you say is worth following up, but I want to correct something and clear a couple of points.

The Big Belly (Nige Tanka) tiyospaye is not the same as the Wagmuha Sna wicoti. The Big Belly band is very old according to winter count traditions I have been allowed access to. It was founded in the AD calendar year 1580 out of extensive intermarriage between Teton people and Mdewakanton people seeking a home on the grasslands. The founding which took place at a great gathering at Bdote (confluence of Mississippi and Minnesota rivers) also featured a membership renewal of the Teton Bull Headdress Wearers or chiefs' society, which was nicknamed Nige Tanka. Because many men in the new band were members, or were invited to join the society, the name Big Belly was extended to their tiyospaye. This band became the core group of a new oyate or tribal division which crystalised in the 17th century -- the ancestral Miniconjou.As I understand the chronology that name, Miniconjou, was applied to the oyate in 1735.

The Eat No Dogs or Sunkayutesni band was founded in the same year, 1735, when a significant number of people from the ancestral Oglala and ancestral Sicangu shifted their tribal affiliation to the Miniconjou. The crisis in relations between the Dakota-Lakota and the French lies behind this realignment. Many of the incomers were from the Oyuhpe band of ancestral Oglala. They included the No Heart family which formed a dynastic line of leadership within the newly formed band.

Roman Nose was not the son of White Painted Shield. Roman Nose's father was Fast Antelope, and his paternal grandfather was Cut Ear, prominent as a Miniconjou leader across the period c. 1790-1830. This family formed the core leadership of a sub-band or wicoti called Maza Su, literally Iron Seed, but meaning a musket ball. This was a sub-band within the Wakpokiyan band, which was led across the period 1850-75 by Lone Horn. Roman Nose and Lone Horn were related as 'cousins' in some sense. I think the connection may have been through their mothers, both of whom seem to have had Sans Arc (Itazipco) connections. The history of the Wakpokiyan is a story in its own right.

I know this only covers a part of what hreinn raised, but believe me this is but the tip of the iceberg. I am working on a larger-scale synthesis.

[hreinn]

Kingsley,
Great to see that knowledge about the history of Mnikhówozu goes so far back.
Great it is not only Oglala history which extends so far.
Are you able and willing to discuss further the mothers of Lone Horn and Roman Nose, for example their names and their tiyoshpaye background ?
Have you got it confirmed that the parents of Lone Horn were White Cow Woman and Black Bull ?

Grahame,
I have not dived into the younger High Backbones and Humps.

[carlo]

Kingsley,
Can't recall the source, but wasn't the relationship between Lone Horn and Roman Nose that they were hunka brothers?

[grahamew]

May 1, 2019 16:24:48 GMT -5 grahamew said:

Somewhere... admittedly, possibly Sandoz, there is a reference to Crazy Horse being a 'cub' (I think) in comparison to High Backbone's 'bear', thus implying that the High Backbone/Hump that Crazy Horse rode with was older - or would he have been associated with both thanks to his links with the Mnikhówozu and the stories have become conflated over time...?

Ooops. That was Kingsley's book and he has him about five years older... but a Mnikhówozu

[carlo]

Hreinn,

Fast Whirlwind's comment that High Backbone was an Oglala is interesting, as he is only ever listed among the Miniconjous. As both men are often mixed up I did a summary of both a few years back, based on available sources:

High Backbone
Miniconjou, born c. 1830-1835. (Hadn't seen Fast Whirlwind's interview before, calling him an Oglala.)
Father was Humpback (don't know the Lakota name, but could be the same as High Backbone. Sometimes translated as Broken Back, he was a Miniconjou headman, killed in 1848 in a fight with the Crows.) High Backbone was a mentor to Crazy Horse (who was 5-10 years his junior), and a prominent warrior & war leader in the 1860's. He was the Miniconjou blotahunka ataya (head war leader) in 1866 when he helped set the strategy for the Fetterman Fight. Died in the fall of 1870 in battle with the Shoshones.

Hump
Miniconjou, born ca. 1848. He was definitely not a generation older than High Backbone, but actually c. 15 years younger.
According to his son John Hump his father was born to a Cheyenne mother, and a Lakota father named Iron Bull (also known by his nickname Mashes His Nails), although Walter Camp names his father Dogskin Necklace. Hump witnessed his father being killed by Crows in the early 1870's. Hump may have been related to High Backbone, possibly his younger nephew, but I have not found any definitive confirmation on that. Hump became a prominent Miniconjou leader in the 1870s and an important ally of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull during the Great Sioux War. His younger brother was Iron Thunder.

[grahamew]

May 2, 2019 15:24:12 GMT -5 carlo said:

Hump
Miniconjou, born ca. 1848. He was definitely not a generation older than High Backbone, but actually c. 15 years younger.
According to his son John Hump his father was born to a Cheyenne mother, and a Lakota father named Iron Bull (also known by his nickname Mashes His Nails), although Walter Camp names his father Dogskin Necklace. Hump witnessed his father being killed by Crows in the early 1870's. Hump may have been related to High Backbone, possibly his younger nephew, but I have not found any definitive confirmation on that. Hump became a prominent Miniconjou leader in the 1870s and an important ally of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull during the Great Sioux War. His younger brother was Iron Thunder.

So is THIS is the man photographed by Huffman after he surrendered and became a scout and is the same fellow who later became a prominent Ghost Dance leader?



Not sure which one he's meant to be here (a photo said to be of Hump and his headmen, though they look geared up for a dance). Also said to be present are Big Road, Tall Bear, White Magpie, Wolf Robe, and Wolf Voice. Your mileage may vary.

[kingsleybray]

grahamew, yes the man photographed by Huffman with his two wives is Hump (c. 1847-1908), the Miniconjou (Eat No Dogs band) leader who surrendered at Ft Keogh (1877) and was later prominent at Cheyenne River Agency. His band settled at the confluence of Cheyenne river and Cherry creek. A number of people at Pine Ridge and Cheyenne River have told me his father was called Mashes His Nail. Perhaps that was a nickname for Dogskin Necklace, the name given Hump's father in one of the Walter Camp documents.

I think it's correct that High Backbone was an uncle (in some sense) to Hump. High Backbone belonged to the Waglezaowin band of Miniconjou. It's important to know that this band formed (in 1827) out of marriages linking the Wakpokiyan band to the Oglala Oyuhpe band. (The Oyuhpe realigned to the Miniconjou across the period 1767-1835.) The Oyuhpe and Waglezaowin remained in extremely close connection right through the 19th century. The father and namesake of Oyuhpe chief Big Road, for instance, an important Sun Dance leader, belonged to the Waglezaowin. He moved to rejoin relatives in the Oyuhpe in 1839. A sub-band called Sunkonazhin (Horse Corral) was cored on Crazy Horse's uncles (mother's 'brothers') Spotted Crow and Ashes. It continued to move between the Oyuhpe and Waglezaowin into the 1870s. Anyway, this network of contacts is why some people said High Backbone was an Oglala, others a Miniconjou. His family is said to have had deeper (18th c.) origins among both the Oyuhpe and the Wazhazha. He was grandson to the Brule head chief Black Bull (c. 1755-1815). His father (named Humpback in the Lone Dog group of winter counts) is the man who killed the Kiowa in the horse trade fair in 1814.

[hreinn]

Carlo,
Fast Whirlwind is the anchor, i.e. sets the frame of reference.
There is so much confusion regarding Hump and High Backbone, that references are of limited value unless they give the Lakota name.


It was Kingsley who drew the attention to the Fast Whirlwind interview in a post in January 2014 in the thread "Wagleza-owin (Gartersnake Earring) band".
amertribes.proboards.com/thread/1981/wagleza-owin-gartersnake-earring-band#ixzz3QEvW2AtO


Kingsley touched on this topic in his book:
"The death of High Backbone is noted, interestingly, in several Oglala and Brule, but no Miniconjou, winter counts."
[Kingsley Bray: "Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life" (2006), p.430, fn35]


The Oglala He Dog answered a question which included the Oglala connection of High Backbone, see Hinman's interview with He Dog in July 13, 1930:
"Question: Dr. Charles Eastman, whose Indian name is "Ohiyesa", has written in a book that Crazy Horse, when he was a young man, was intimate friends with a famous Oglala war chief called Hump or High Back Bone. We wonder if He Dog can tell us anything about this man and his friendship with Crazy Horse."
"Answer: High Back Bone and Crazy Horse were sworn friends and went on n early all their war expeditions together, and the one was as great a war leader as the other. The first and last time these two disagreed was the time when High Back Bone got killed."
Paul, Eli R. (editor): "The Nebraska Indian Wars Reader 1865-1877", University of Nebraska Press (1998), pages 185-186.


Today, I am inclined to the following:
In 1857, Crazy Horse fought against Atsinas with his Mnikhówozu mentor Hump (Cahahake / Čhaŋĥáĥake)
In 1870, Crazy Horse fought against Shoshones with his Oglala friend High Backbone (Cakuhu Wakatuya / Čhaŋkĥáhu Waŋkáta)



Grahame,
The original source for the phrase "the grizzly and his cup" is the book by Charles A. Eastman (Ohiyesa); "Indian Heroes and Great Chieftains" (1918), page 90.

[carlo]

May 3, 2019 7:47:46 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

A number of people at Pine Ridge and Cheyenne River have told me his father was called Mashes His Nail. Perhaps that was a nickname for Dogskin Necklace, the name given Hump's father in one of the Walter Camp documents. 

Kingsley,
I have a brief interview with Hump's son John Hump (b. 1904) in which he states that his father was born to Iron Bull, also known as Mashes His Nails, and Ziti, later Mrs. Iron Bull (1827-1917).
 
Perhaps Iron Bull had two nicknames, one of which was Dogskin Necklace.

[kingsleybray]

These are the years in which the main Miniconjou tiyospaye were formed, according to the winter count traditions that have been shared with me. These dates are not the end of the story because there are at least two sub-bands (wicoti) with older dates than the main band. Tahuka, which was a sub-band within Wakpokiyan in the 19th century, was founded in 1632. (Tahuka was the wicoti connected to Lame Deer in the 19th c.) And the Unci, or Grandmother band, which was a sub-band too (I'm not 100% sure which tiyospaye it was nested within), as the name intimates, dates back even further in time. The Siksicela tiyospaye existed before 1762, but that was the year that the larger original band dissolved its organization and was dispersed among the Yanktonai and various Teton tribal divisions.

1580: Nige Tanka
1610: Glaglaheca
1621: Inyanhaowin
1623: Unkceyuta
1693: Wanhinwega
1735: Sunkayutesni
1750: Wakpokiyan
1762: Siksicela
1827: Waglezaowin

[grahamew]

What does High Backbone refer to? Perhaps because of the confusion with Hump I'd always thought it referred to the back of a buffalo but in this Brule winter count, we see an entry for (if I've worked this out correctly...) 1870/1(?) the following picture:



Though the date may be off by a year, it seems too much of a coincidence that the drawing depicts a man dressed in the same cape and headgear combination that High Backbone wears in Bad Heart Bull's drawings, but the name glyph seems to be a wolf or fox with a high (or humped) back...

[hreinn]

Remarkable !!
The year 1580 and earlier !!

Remarkable to see how a group of people are unified in a relatively large tiyoshpaye like Siksicela.
And then suddenly, the unification disappear and this group of people splits.
Not splitting into 2 groups, but instead splitting into many groups (at least 5 groups; Dakota, Mnikhówozu, Oglala, Itazipco, Hunkpapa).
But still most or all of them identify themselves with the original group.
So they were proud of their roots.
And there must have been a strong glue among them at some point in time.
But there was something so disturbing or catastrophic, that it caused the group to split into pieces.
It would be interesting to know what could be so disturbing.
Perhaps part of the reason was if that these people tended to be proud and quick tempered, which caused an epic eruption in 1762.

Remarkable to see how long lasting a wicoti can be, as demonstrated by Tahuka.
I had imagined that each given wicoti name was more fluid and a new wicoti name taken up by every 2-4 generations.

Good luck to weave all these long lasting threads into one rope !
Which in addition connects to other oyate among Lakota and Dakota !
It must have happened at least once, that your head was spinning !