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Post by carlo on Aug 30, 2010 2:26:41 GMT -5
Hi Eljay, There is one additional group photo (1896) posted by HinTamaheca on another board that includes George Fire Thunder, see here about half way down: oyate1.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pictures&action=display&thread=2069The post also includes a photo of Fire Lightning (1891). It starts with the 1868 Gardner photo, where the man on the right is identified as Pipe; that would be the identity in question Dietmar mentions. Carlo
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Aug 30, 2010 18:09:14 GMT -5
Hi Carlo,
Thanks for the reply to my question. So many wonderful photos. Even one of another name in the family ancestry, Big Wolf!
eljay
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Aug 31, 2010 19:06:35 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I was wondering if there were any photographs taken of Fire Thunder, with Black Elk and John Neihardt during or after the interviews for the book Black Elk Speaks? Is anything else written about Fire Thunder(1848-or49) as a warrior?
eljay
eljay
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 1, 2010 5:36:07 GMT -5
eljay
I only know of this war exploit story about Fire Thunder. Check the Amos Bad Heart Bull PICTOGRAPHIC HISTORY OF THE OGLALA SIOUX, plate 285, p. 381. There Fire Thunder, identified by the sort of lewd nickname given by winktes, Anuk Onze ('Double Ass' or 'Anus on Both Sides'), is depicted counting coup with his bow on a fallen Crow Indian. The No Ears winter count gives under 1872 that Double Ass killed two Crow Indians - evidently a separate incident. Variants of the count also identify this man as Fire Cloud and Hollow Head, but I think all are referring to our Fire Thunder.
Joseph Eagle Hawk (1869-1954) indicated to John Colhoff that "The northern Fire Thunder" was living with the Crazy Horse camp during the removal of the Red Cloud Agency in November 1877. He listed him among several men, naming Yellow Eagle, Little Hawk, Iron White Man, and Standing Bear, who belonged to the Crazy Horse band or tiyoshpaye. (John Colhoff to Joseph Balmer, April 25, 1951, transcript in my collection.)
Remember how we found that Fire Thunder moved from Spotted Tail Agency on October 25, 1877, with a group of people intending to join the Red Cloud Agency column then starting for the new agency site. If Joseph Eagle Hawk was correct, he joined Crazy Horse's Hunkpatila band for several weeks or months. Note however he did not join the flight of that group to Canada (January 1878), but at some point attached himself to Red Cloud's Bad Face band, settling permanently at Pine Ridge later in 1878.
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Post by Dietmar on Sept 1, 2010 7:04:21 GMT -5
It starts with the 1868 Gardner photo, where the man on the right is identified as Pipe; that would be the identity in question Dietmar mentions. Yes, I was only questioning the identity of Red Bear, who is often identified as Pipe, which I´m pretty sure he isn´t. Further, I think it was Kingsley who said in a discussion earlier, that even Red Bear might be a translation error, because there wasn´t any important Lakota leader at that particular time at Fort Laramie and the individual instead could be Yellow Bear I. Regarding the Fire Thunder photo with Black Elk: There must be a group photo of Fire Thunder, Iron Hawk, Standing Bear and Red Elk in "Black Elk and Flaming Rainbow: Personal Memories of the Lakota Holy Man and John Neihardt" by Hilda Neihardt. Unfortunately I don´t have the book. Mike Stevens collected some data on his site about the different Fire Thunder´s children: freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mikestevens/2010-p/i20.htm#2379
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Sept 1, 2010 11:12:29 GMT -5
Hi Kingsley and Dietmar, Well! Kingsley, i must be more careful what i'm asking for........HAHAHA! I will check out the Amos Bad Hear Bull PICTOGRAPH, thank you very much for your quick response. Dietmar, thanks also for the info on the Hilda Neihardt book, I look forward to what i can find there. Yes, i am familiar with Mike Stevens data and hope to contribute to it soon.
eljay
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Post by Dietmar on Sept 2, 2010 14:51:19 GMT -5
Edgar Fire Thunder was among the first Lakota boys who were transported to Carlisle Indian School, Pennsylvania in 1879. When they arrived they were photographed in their Indian clothes, before their hair was cut and they had to wear white-man-clothes. I believe this is Edgar Fire Thunder, edited from the 1879 well known group photo:
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Sept 2, 2010 18:30:43 GMT -5
Dietmar, A great photo of a young Edgar and what a sad story it tells.... eljay
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Sept 11, 2010 21:33:50 GMT -5
Hi Ephraim, Kingsley, Dietmar, Came across the photo, US Commissioners and Delegations of Sioux Chiefs, 1888 (here under Two Strike). Listed in the photo is "Capt. Fire-thunder, Police Force, (#76, sixth row) under the Cheyenne River, Crow Creek, and Lower Brule Delegations. Does anyone here know which Fire Thunder this man was? Also, was there a group photo taken of this delegation? Since there is one of the Oglalas, there must be one of each delegation, right?
eljay
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Post by Dietmar on Sept 14, 2010 7:51:36 GMT -5
Eljay, this is the Fire Thunder who went with the delegation of 1888 to Washington: Fire Thunder Because he was among the delegates from Lower Brule and Crow Creek I believe he must be the Lower Brule Ephriam spoke of earlier. This is the Lower Brule/Crow Creek delegation, I don´t have precise identifications, but I would assume he is the man sitting in front row at far left:
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Post by dickmill on Sept 14, 2010 8:48:51 GMT -5
Dietmar -- This is a scan of a copy I found at NAA. Agency delegation photos from Oct 1888 were sent to each agent for identification. This was returned by Major Anderson. I believe that the id's are left to right regardless of row. (There are id's from each agent for each agency in the NAA files.)
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Post by gregor on Sept 14, 2010 13:34:35 GMT -5
Here is my version of the Crow Creek / Lower Brulé delegation photo of 1888. I named the persons according to the big Washington Delegation photo from October 15, 1888. We find all persons in the above photograph also in this big delegation pic.
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Post by dickmill on Sept 14, 2010 16:49:59 GMT -5
Gregor:
I think your ID's exactly match the left to right order from the agent. It's good (and sometimes rare) to have different sources agree on photos!
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Sept 14, 2010 17:58:37 GMT -5
Dietmar, Dickmill, Gregor,
thank you, thank you, thank you.
eljay
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Post by miller7513 on Jul 12, 2011 16:14:05 GMT -5
Eljay-Fire Thunder family
Descendants of Foam (---) and Short Woman (---)
1. Foam1 (---), born May 1825 in Wyoming. He married Short Woman (---), born 1824 in Oglala Sioux Nation. Notes for Foam (---) 1887 Pine Ridge pg 109 30 Jun 1888 Pine Ridge pg 443 1 Jul 1890 Pine Ridge pg 185 Wounded Knee 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 400 1900 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 46 Ephriam was able to confirm that Foam was the father-in-law of Fire Thunder (born 1849)?? Notes for Short Woman (---) 1887 Pine Ridge pg 109 30 Jun 1888 Pine Ridge pg 443 1 Jul 1890 Pine Ridge pg 185 Wounded Knee
Children of Foam (---) and Short Woman (---) were as follows: 2 i Her Door2 (---), born 1857 in Oglala Sioux Nation. Notes: 1887 Pine Ridge pg 109 30 Jun 1888 Pine Ridge pg 443 1 Jul 1890 Pine Ridge pg 185 Wounded Knee + 3 ii Cant Enter Door2 (---), born 1854 in Oglala Sioux Nation. She married Fire Thunder (---).
Generation 2
3. Cant Enter Door2 (---) (Foam1), born 1854 in Oglala Sioux Nation. She married Fire Thunder (---), born 1849 in Oglala Sioux Nation; died 6 Aug 1937 in Pine Ridge South Dakota. Notes for Cant Enter Door (---) 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 355 1893 Pine Ridge pg 352 1910 United States Federal Census South Dakota Wounded Knee Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 119 Notes for Fire Thunder (---) Considered a hostile because of his association with Lance Owner, Bad Ree & Stinking Heel Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger pg 103 arrivals from the north Mar 14th 1877 with Lance Owner & Stinking Heel 9 in lodge pg 109 Oglala Red Cloud with Lance Owner & Stinking Heel 9 in lodge pg 153 transferred to Spotted Tail was with Lance Owner 6 in lodge pg 166 May 7th 1877 from Spotted Tail Jun 1886 Pine Ridge pg 187 1887 Pine Ridge pg 109 30 Jun 1888 Pine Ridge pg 443 1 Jul 1890 Pine Ridge pg 185 Wounded Knee 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 355 Wounded Knee 1893 Pine Ridge pg 351 1 Jul 1894 Pine Ridge pg 144 1 Jul 1895 Pine Ridge pg 373 30 Jun 1896 Pine Ridge pg 58 30 Jun 1897 Pine Ridge pg 218 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 400 30 Jun 1900 Pine Ridge pg 199 1900 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 46 1910 United States Federal Census South Dakota Wounded Knee Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 119
Children of Cant Enter Door (---) and Fire Thunder (---) were as follows: 4 i Save Lives3 (---), born 1871 in Oglala Sioux Nation. Notes: 1887 Pine Ridge pg 109 30 Jun 1888 Pine Ridge pg 443 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 355 1893 Pine Ridge pg 351 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 400 Loves Life 1910 United States Federal Census South Dakota Wounded Knee Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 119 5 ii William3 Fire Thunder, born 1872 in Oglala Sioux Nation Nebraska. He married Mary Cut Grass, born 1871 in Oglala Sioux Nation Nebraska. Notes: 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 355 1893 Pine Ridge pg 352 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 400 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge 30 Jun 1900 Pine Ridge pg 199 6 iii Her Blanket3 (---), born 1879 in Oglala Sioux Nation. 7 iv Comes Out Holy3 (---), born 1881 in Oglala Sioux Nation. Notes: 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 355 Jennie 1893 Pine Ridge pg 352 Jennie 30 Jun 1895 Pine Ridge pg 373 Jennie 30 Jun 1896 Pine Ridge pg 58 Jennie 30 Jun 1897 Pine Ridge pg 218 Jennie 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 400 Jennie 30 Jun 1899 Pine Ridge pg 536 1900 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 46 8 v Worship The Earth3 (---), born 1883 in Oglala Sioux Nation. Notes: 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 355 Earth 5 yrs old 1893 Pine Ridge pg 352 Earth 6 yrs old 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 400 Earth + 9 vi Angelique3 Fire Thunder, born 1889 in Pine Ridge, South Dakota; died 6 Dec 1953 in Pine Ridge South Dakota. She married Edward Cuny. + 10 vii Charles3 Fire Thunder, born Dec 1890. He married (1) Sophia White Coyote; (2) Rosa (---). + 11 viii Lydia3 Fire Thunder, born 1893 in Oglala Sioux Nation, South Dakota. She married Phillip Blue Bird. 12 ix William3 Fire Thunder, born 1896 in Oglala Sioux Nation, South Dakota. He married Stella Pulliam, born 1903 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, daughter of John Pulliam and Lucinda Bettelyoun. Notes: 1 Apr 1933 Pine Ridge 13 x Bessie3 Fire Thunder, born 1898 in Oglala Sioux Nation, South Dakota. + 14 xi Peter3 Fire Thunder, born 1900 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. He married Sallie Six Feathers. 15 xii Rebecca3 Fire Thunder, born 1910 in Oglala Sioux Nation, South Dakota. Notes: 1 Apr 1933 Pine Ridge
Generation 3
9. Angelique3 Fire Thunder (Cant Enter Door2 (---), Foam1), born 1889 in Pine Ridge, South Dakota; died 6 Dec 1953 in Pine Ridge South Dakota. She married Edward Cuny, born Jun 1886 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, son of Charles Cuny and Louise LaRocque. Notes for Angelique Fire Thunder 30 Jun 1899 Pine Ridge pg 536 1900 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 46 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge Notes for Edward Cuny 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge
Children of Angelique Fire Thunder and Edward Cuny were as follows: 16 i Leroy4 Cuny, born 5 Jul 1908 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota; died 23 Oct 1928 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. + 17 ii Millie4 Cuny, born 13 Jan 1911 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. She married Wallace Little. + 18 iii Viola4 Cuny, born 1912 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. She married Levi Good Crow. 19 iv Elton Theodore4 Cuny, born 17 Jul 1914 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota; died Nov 1977 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 20 v Rebecca A4 Cuny, born 1917 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 21 vi Woodrow4 Cuny, born 1919 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 22 vii Elaine4 Cuny, born 1921 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 23 viii Thomas4 Cuny, born 1923 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota.
10. Charles3 Fire Thunder (Cant Enter Door2 (---), Foam1), born Dec 1890. He married (1) Sophia White Coyote, born 1896 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, daughter of Joseph White Coyote and Martha (---); (2) Rosa (---), born 1897 in Pine Ridge, South Dakota. Notes for Charles Fire Thunder 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 355 1893 Pine Ridge pg 352 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 400 1900 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 46 1910 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Wounded Knee 1910 United States Federal Census South Dakota Wounded Knee Pine Ridge Indian Reservation District 119 30 Jun 1919 Pine Ridge 1930 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Township 38 District 28 WWI Civilian Draft Registration Fire Thunder, Charles Birth Date: Dec 1890 Birth Place: Manderson SD City/County: Shannon[Late State: SD Notes for Sophia White Coyote 30 Jun 1897 Pine Ridge pg 220 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 401 1930 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Township 38 District 28 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge Notes for Rosa (---) 30 Jun 1915 Pine Ridge
Children of Charles Fire Thunder and Sophia White Coyote were as follows: 24 i Ederson4 Fire Thunder, born 8 Apr 1921 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. Notes: 1930 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Township 38 District 28 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge 25 ii Mark4 Fire Thunder, born 10 Oct 1928 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. Notes: 1930 United States Federal Census South Dakota Shannon Township 38 District 28 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge
Children of Charles Fire Thunder and Rosa (---) were as follows: 26 i Angelique4 Fire Thunder, born 27 Nov 1915 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. Notes: 30 Jun 1919 Pine Ridge 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge
11. Lydia3 Fire Thunder (Cant Enter Door2 (---), Foam1), born 1893 in Oglala Sioux Nation, South Dakota. She married Phillip Blue Bird, born 1898 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, son of Jefferson Blue Bird and Annie Yellow Thunder. Notes for Phillip Blue Bird 30 June 1898 Pine Ridge
Children of Lydia Fire Thunder and Phillip Blue Bird were as follows: 27 i Arlene4 Blue Bird, born 9 May 1922 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 28 ii Florence Emily4 Blue Bird, born 28 Aug 1925 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota; died 31 Dec 1929 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota.
14. Peter3 Fire Thunder (Cant Enter Door2 (---), Foam1), born 1900 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. He married Sallie Six Feathers, born 1903 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, daughter of John Six Feathers and Josephine (---). Notes for Peter Fire Thunder 1 Apr 1933 Pine Ridge 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge Notes for Sallie Six Feathers 30 Jun 1903 Pine Ridge 30 Jun 1913 Pine Ridge
Children of Peter Fire Thunder and Sallie Six Feathers were as follows: 29 i Agnes4 Fire Thunder, born 24 Jan 1922 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. Notes: 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge 30 ii Josephine4 Fire Thunder, born 7 Dec 1923 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. Notes: 1 Jan 1934 Pine Ridge
Generation 4
17. Millie4 Cuny (Angelique3 Fire Thunder, Cant Enter Door2 (---), Foam1), born 13 Jan 1911 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. She married Wallace Little, born 1901 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, son of Amos Little and Lissie (---).
Children of Millie Cuny and Wallace Little were as follows: 31 i Leroy5 Little, born 27 Apr 1931 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 32 ii Adele Angeline5 Little, born 21 Jul 1932 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 33 iii Richard Theodore5 Little, born 11 Jan 1934 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota.
18. Viola4 Cuny (Angelique3 Fire Thunder, Cant Enter Door2 (---), Foam1), born 1912 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. She married Levi Good Crow, born 1910 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, son of Abraham Good Crow and Frances Big Wolf. Notes for Levi Good Crow 30 Jun 1915 Pine Ridge gr-son of Big Wolf & Fannie
Children of Viola Cuny and Levi Good Crow were as follows: 34 i Levi5 Good Crow, born 30 Apr 1931 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota. 35 ii Isabelle Bernice5 Good Crow, born 28 Aug 1932 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota.
LaDeane
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