eljay
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Posts: 15
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Post by eljay on Aug 21, 2010 21:49:01 GMT -5
Hi,
I am looking for any info/photo on an Oglala man named Fire Thunder who was born in Wyoming about 1848. He married Can't Enter Door, Oglala, b. 1853. They married about 1870 and raised their family on Pine Ridge. They were my Great Great Grandparents on my mothers side. I know that there were several men with the same name and I am hoping someone here can help identify some of them so that i can figure out which ones we're related to.
Thanks
Eljay
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Post by ephriam on Aug 24, 2010 0:31:22 GMT -5
Eljay:
Welcome to our board. I hope you can share some of what you know about your family. Here is what I have at this point.
As you probably already know, there are three different families named Wakinyan Peta who settled on the Pine Ridge Reservation. The names of two of the families were translated as Fire Thunder while the third became known as Fire Lightning. So it easy to get the various families confused. Here is my best guess as to the movements of these three families:
Fire Lightning Wakinyan Peta (c1835-c1909). Also known as Blue Cloud. Oglala: Wablenica. Born about 1834-35; father was a Cheyenne and his mother a Lakota. Fire Lightning married about 1862 to Road Canku. He hunted with the southern Oglala on Republican River area during the 1870s and achieved some status as a minor headman. Had at least five children but I do not have any of their names yet. He died sometime between 1907 and 1910.
Fire Thunder Wakinyan Peta (c1828-c1895). Oglala: Wagluhe. Born about 1828, he married Bear Woman by the early 1860s. Signed the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868. He is mentioned visiting the newly established Red Cloud Agency in 1871; settled there by 1874 where he is listed as leader of small band associated with the Loafers. He signed the Black Hills Treaty of 1876 (covering his eyes as he did so). He lived the remainder of his life on the Pine Ridge Reservation where he died about 1895. I suspect that Edgar Fire Thunder and George Fire Thunder who are listed in the later census records are two of his sons. Edgar served as an Indian scout during the Ghost Dance troubles in 1891.
Your relative: Fire Thunder Wakinyan Peta (c1848-1937). Oglala: Oyuhpe. Born about 1848-49, he married Can’t Enter Door about 1870. His eldest son, Saves Life Niwicaya (later known as Joseph Fire Thunder) was born about 1872. A second son, Brave Ohitika (later known as William Fire Thunder) was born about 1873-74. He was out with the non-treaty bands during the Great Sioux War of 1876-77 and was present at the Battle of the Little Bighorn (he later revisited the site). Fire Thunder surrendered at the Red Cloud Agency on March 14, 1877 and was temporarily assigned to Red Cloud’s band. He transferred to the Spotted Tail Agency on April 9, 1877. While many of the “northern” Oglala slipped away to Canada, it appears that Fire Thunder remained at Red Cloud. He moved to Pine Ridge Reservation in 1878 where he spent remainder of his life. Daughter Her Blanket Tasina win (later known as Jennie) born about 1880; Earth Maka or Comes Out Holy (later known as Angelique) was born about 1881; a daughter Prays to Earth or Worship the Earth Maka Cekige win was born about 1884. A boy was born about 1887 but apparently died as an infant; and another boy was born about 1889, eventually named Charles Fire Thunder. Charles gave a statement in 1969 in the Kadlecek’s book To Kill an Eagle: Indian Views on the Last Days of Crazy Horse. Fire Thunder received an allotment in 1910 west of Rockyford in the Cuny Table area. He died August 6, 1937.
One of the Fire Thunders went to Washington, D.C. as a delegate in 1891 and was photographed. But I am not certain which one he is yet.
I hope this helps.
ephriam
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Post by Dietmar on Aug 24, 2010 1:59:00 GMT -5
Welcome Eljay, and thanks to Ephriam for the info. I´m a bit in a haste, but here are some photos of different Fire Thunders from the Smithsonian, I think there are even more: Fire Thunder, Man-Afraid-of-his-Horses & Red Bear (identity questionable), 1868 by A. Gardner George Fire Thunder 1879 in Carlisle Indian School by John Choate Wakinyan Peta, Called George Fire-Thunder, Assistant Missionary at the Pine Ridge Reservation?, Son of Chief Fire-Thunder 1896 by William Dinwiddie Later Dietmar
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Post by Dietmar on Aug 25, 2010 1:18:56 GMT -5
Here´s another Fire Thunder in a photo we discussed earlier:
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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 25, 2010 4:30:17 GMT -5
Hello Eljay, Ephriam and everyone, what follows is a few disjointed observations about Fire Thunder (ca. 1849-1937) and possible relatives in the Oyuhpe band of Oglalas.
I have wondered if Fire Thunder may be a son of the Oyuhpe headman Imnistan (Saliva, sometimes translated Foam). They are listed next to each other in the 1890 Pine Ridge census list of the Oyuhpe band, as if they lived adjoining, and Saliva is the right age (born ca. 1824) to be Fire Thunder's father.
From clustering of names in censuses and other late 19th century lists, I think there may be a connection - "brothers"? - between Saliva I, Owl Eagle (born ca. 1824), and Shoot Ghost (born ca. 1826). The latter is first listed as minor headman in the camp of "Minneconjou & Northern" Indians at New Whetstone Agency winter 1873-74.
There was also a younger man bearing the name Imnistan/Saliva, born ca. 1839 and immortalised in Edward Curtis's photos of the hunka ceremony of adoption, lighting the pipe, painting the buffalo skull. The other two men officiating in the restaging of the ceremony are also Oyuhpe - Slow Bull (born ca. 1844), son of the chief of that name, and Picket Pin (born ca. 1850).
Charles Fire Thunder told the Kadleceks that the trader Joseph Bissonnette was a brother-in-law to his grandfather (TO KILL AN EAGLE p. 102). Two men identified as brothers-in-law of Bissonnette were Bearskin Robe (born ca. 1828, Loafer band) and Black Fox, the father of Kicking Bear, probably born about 1820 (Oyuhpe band, possibly Wakan sub-band). Bearskin Robe signed the Treaty of Ft Laramie in 1868, and was on the delegation to Washington in 1870 (he is the man standing at the left in the photo with Red Dog and others - most of the men have some sort of Oyuhpe connection, so possibly he originated in that band and went to live among the Loafers).
I suggest that the relationship to Bissonnette may have been through Charles Fire Thunder's mother, i.e she was the daughter of one of Bissonnette's brothers-in-law.
In the 1890 census the younger Saliva, born ca. 1839 (so presumably not a biological son of his older namesake), is the next family to Peter, born ca. 1848, one of the sons of Joseph Bissonnette.
As said just a few ideas and hunches, but maybe the Ephriam census concordance can kick in on some of these names!
PS: Bearskin Robe in the 1890 Loafer band census is just four families away from Edgar Fire Thunder. I wonder if there is not some sort of family connection ("cousins"?) we're not seeing between Charles Fire Thunder and Edgar and George Fire Thunder. I think the latter two are sons of the Loafer band leader Fire Thunder named above by Ephriam. He is the man in the 1868 Alexander Gardner Ft Laramie photograph with Old Man Afraid of His Horse, holding a very large ceremonial (pipe?) bundle, posted above by Dietmar.
Best wishes and good luck Eljay with your family research. I think I can say for everyone on the Boards that we'd be delighted to help in whatever way we can
Kingsley
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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 25, 2010 8:55:39 GMT -5
A quick update on the above.
As Ephriam noted Fire Thunder was one of the non-treaty Lakotas who surrendered at Camp Robinson/Red Cloud Agency on March 14, 1877. He was part of the camp led by No Water, and a few days later was transferred to Red Cloud's band, the agency camp of Bad Faces. Then he sought transfer to Spotted Tail Agency and was transferred there on April 9. The Spotted Tail Agency census taken in May-June 1877 lists Fire Thunder (family of 4 people: 1 man, 1 woman, 2 boys) in the main Brule village. Also listed in the Brule village are Foam (family of 5) and Owl Eagle (family of 11). As stated above I think Foam may be a 'father' of Fire Thunder, and Owl Eagle is probably some family connection of Foam's. "Owl Eagle & Band" it is worth noting planted almost 12 acres in spring 1877 at Spotted Tail Agency.
Now for a slight complication! In the Corn-Loafer band at Spotted Tail the 1877 census also lists Lance Owner and Fire Thunder with a family of 4 (two men, 1 woman, 1 girl). This is definitely OUR Fire Thunder because Lance Owner and Fire Thunder surrendered together at Red Cloud with a total family of 9 people. The two men were transferred still together to Spotted Tail, now with a family of 6. Possibly there were two men named Fire Thunder in the Spotted Tail census, but it may also be possible that the family was split in some way between the two Brule villages and Fire Thunder himself was counted twice. (When the Brules were counted again in December Fire Thunder is not included, when we know that OUR Fire Thunder had definitely moved back to Red Cloud Agency: see below.)
At National Archives Kansas City in 2007 I found a letter in the Spotted Tail Agency Outgoing Correspondence File, from Agt Lt. Jesse Lee to the Red Cloud Indian Agent [James Irwin], dated October 25, 1877. In it Lee lists 28 families, total 194 people, who "wish to be transferred to your Agency, they are rationed with rations and beef to include the 28th Inst".
The list is headed by Joseph Bissonnette, then his son Peter, plus Lakota families including Battiste Good and his son High Hawk, famous as winter count keepers. However, more relevant to our current thread the following families are included:
Owl Eagle 11 people Fire Thunder 4 people Foam 4 people
The time frame is important because at the end of October 1877 the Indians at both Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies were being readied for removal to new (unwanted) agency locations on the Missouri River. The following year the permanent homes of these people were finally located at modern Pine Ridge and Rosebud. Fire Thunder and "Foam" (nb Imnistan, Saliva) are listed in the first register we have for Pine Ridge, the 1879 ration roll. They are both listed as living in Red Cloud's band (as are the Bissonnette family and Owl Eagle).
The list was updated in 1882 with no change in their band identification. Shoot the Ghost, who I think may be another contemporary-relative of Saliva, is listed in the 1882 register among the people recently transferred from Standing Rock Agency, the bands who had been in Canada with Sitting Bull. The family must have moved to the Oyuhpe band settlements along Wounded Knee Creek later in the 1880s.
The importance of the October 1877 document is in confirming the links between Fire Thunder, Foam, and the Bissonnettes.
Kingsley
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Post by ephriam on Aug 25, 2010 9:55:46 GMT -5
Kingsley:
Good observation on Foam. He may be the father or the father-in-law of Fire Thunder. These two families appear consistently together in all the census records from Oct. 1877 through 1910. Strong evidence that they are related in some way. Also notice that in the 1886 census, Foam has a 15 year old grandson named Saves; in the 1887 census, the young man is listed as Saves Their Life; finally, in the 1890 census, notice that Save Their Lives, age 19, is now listed in Fire Thunder's family, as a son.
Foam survived well into the early reservation period. At the time of his death on May 10, 1910, however, Looks Twice was listed as his son, not Fire Thunder. This suggests that Foam was probably a father-in-law to Fire Thunder.
One other observation: When Fire Thunder surrendered at the Red Cloud Agency in March 1877, he is listed in the same family as Lance Owner. Both of these families were transferred to the Spotted Tail Agency together in April 1877. In the May-June 1877 census record for Spotted Tail, Fire Thunder appears under the name of Lance Owner.
I found the transfer list in October 1877 for a number of Oglala from Spotted Tail back to Red Cloud, including Fire Thunder and (two families away) Foam. This is the first record of this name that I can find in the agency records -- while the name Lance Owner now disappears. Makes me wonder if Lance Owner was another name for Foam.
Eljay: Have you ever requested the family probate records from Pine Ridge? These documents will provide some great information about relationships that will not be found anywhere else. Would encourage you to request those if you have not already. Would you be willing to share those records when you get them? (Only family members can request them).
Will take a look at the other relationships proposed when I have a few minutes. Great use of census records, Kingsley!
ephriam
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Post by ephriam on Aug 25, 2010 10:05:46 GMT -5
Kingsley:
You posted your message while I was writing mine! Looks like we both found the Oct. 1877 document showing Fire Thunder's transfer back to Red Cloud.
Just wanted to point out that the Fire Thunder listed in the Brule band in the Spotted Tail Agency May-June 1877 census is not our man. There is correspondence in the Spotted Tail Agency files documenting the arrival of another Lakota by this name from the Lower Brule Agency (Paul to CoIA Nov. 30, 1876; Lee to Agent, Lower Brule Agency, April 4, 1877; Gregory to Indian Agent, Spotted Tail Agency, Mar. 30, 1877). I assume that this is him in this part of the census.
Our man is no doubt the Fire Thunder listed under Lance Owner in the Loafer band of the STA Census May-June 1877.
ephriam
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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 25, 2010 10:49:13 GMT -5
Great, Ephriam, that clarifies that Fire Thunder listed in the Brule band census at Spotted Tail Agency in May-June 1877 is NOT our man, but a Lower Brule visitor.
And secondly, good census evidence that Foam/Saliva is OUR Fire Thunder's father-in-law, not father.
However, both Foam and Lance Owner are named separately in the census, so I don't think they are the same man.
It would be good to nail this Bissonnette connection for the Fire Thunders. Re-reading Kadlecek, Charles Fire Thunder is quite explicit about the relationship: "[Joseph Bissonnette] was a brother-in-law to my grandfather. He married my grandfather's cousin." This suggests that Fire Thunder's grandfather was a classificatory 'son' or possibly 'nephew' to Black Fox and Bearskin Robe. Since the latter pair were probably both born in the 1815-30 frame, and the grandfather fits in two generations before 1849, so not later than approx. 1810, this does seem to be straining the logic of generations, but not for the first time! An older man marrying a young woman and having children skews generational expectations.
Spotted Tail Agency census January 1875: includes Foam and family of 13, a Fire Thunder and family of 6, Owl Eagle and family of 18, Shot at Ghost and family of 9. The list includes mainly Brules of course, but also Miniconjous, Two Kettles and Sans Arcs - no way of identifying individual families with tribal divisions, unfortunately. Remember Shoots Ghost had been with the Northern visitors at the Brule agency the previous winter also, 1873-74.
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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 25, 2010 14:31:46 GMT -5
Going off at a slight tangent here, because we haven't yet established any connection between Owl Eagle and the Fire Thunder-Foam tiwahes. However I've gone through the Whetstone Agency records for 1871-74 and found this reference to Owl Eagle.
On March 5 1872 at the relocated Whetstone Agency on White River (near modern Whitney, Nebraska) several Brule leaders signed a request to the Indian Office about agency affairs. At this time most of the Southern Brules, led by Spotted Tail, were absent on their winter hunt on the Republican River. The leaders who signed identified themselves as "we are the ones that stay with you [the agent] all the time". They were as follows:
Yellow Hair White Thunder Swift Bear Fast Dog Dog Hawk Owl Eagle Iron Shell
The first three represent various tiyospaye associated with the Corn band-Loafer band village, seemingly now reorganized under a unitary village leadership. Of the last four, two - Iron Shell and Dog Hawk - are definitvely of the Orphan or No Mother band, and I suspect that the other two are Orphan band leaders too. As early as 1866 Dog Hawk had been noted as leading a sub-band favourably disposed to farming. Judging by Owl Eagle's band's performance in farming in 1877, we may surmise that Owl Eagle belonged to that segment of the Orphan band also. So these four headmen, Iron Shell, Dog Hawk, Owl Eagle, and Swift Dog, may each have led a tiyospaye of the Orphan band.
For whatever reason Owl Eagle decided to move to the Oglala agency in fall 1877, at the same time as his putative kinsmen Foam and Fire Thunder. Given the government's intransigence in moving the agencies to the Missouri, despite the sterling work in farming by such leaders as Owl Eagle - who can blame him for taking umbrage?
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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 25, 2010 16:05:11 GMT -5
Lance Owner, family of 3 (1 man, 1 woman, 1 boy), is still listed under Loafer band on the December 1877 Spotted Tail Agency census - so he definitely remained at STA after Fire Thunder and Foam went to join the Red Cloud Agency people.
It's beginning to look as if Foam's tiwahe was, prior to 1877, Brule rather than Oglala, and possibly part of the Orphan band.
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Aug 25, 2010 21:25:17 GMT -5
Hi, Dietmar, Ephraim and Kingsley, Thank you so much for responding to my search on the Fire Thunders! You've given me so much fascinating detailed information and wonderful photos too. I never would have been able to find this much on my own. This helps me tremendously and i am reallllly excited to learn more. I did find the Group Portrait w/ a very young Fire Thunder - Denver Library, one of your links. A great photo, Thanks. Which one was he?
Another Bissonette connection for Charles Fire Thunder, His sister Angelique (my great grandmother) married Edward Cuny. He was the grandson of Adolph Cuny(Cueni) and Josephine Bissonette, 1835-1936. Edwards father was Charles Cuny, and Cuny Table was named for him. Adolph was once a peace officer in the Ft. Laramie region. He and business partner Jules Ecoffey built/bought? the Three Mile Hog Ranch, a military post and stage stop for the Cheyenne and Black Hills Stage line. It also had a "notorious reputation as a military bordello, with the likes of Calamity Jane in residence." It is also listed on the National Register of Historic Places, "one of very few military bordellos left in the Western US". Another fascinating ancestor.....!!
Back to Fire Thunders! Ephraim, no, I have never requested the probate records on my ancestors. I never thought to. Which is a shame because i visited Pine Ridge for a probate in 2007. Thanks for the suggestion. I plan to do so right away. Yes, I would love to share with you what I find there.
Another riddle for me to unravel, Angelique Fire Thunder attended the Hampton Normal and Agricultural Institute in Virginia, 1900-1904. In her student files, she listed her parents names as Susie Good Hawk and Louis Fire Thunder. I've never come across these names in the census rolls on Ancestry and no one in the family has ever heard of them. Can you tell me anything about where the name Good Hawk may have come in? Have not been able to get any photos or docs from Hampton. They're very strict.
Kingsley, Ephraim and Dietmar, thank you so much for all your time and effort. I am sooo pleased with what you've found. This website is fantastic. I have been spending all my free time reading everything here. I have much to process here now, its going to take me some time and really looking forward to it. Kingsley, I can't wait to purchase your book Crazy Horse: A Lakota Life! Eljay
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Aug 25, 2010 22:43:46 GMT -5
Hi again, just an afterthought or two, Joseph Bissonette had two wives. The first was Julie Hubert, Oglala. They had 7 childen. His 2nd wife was Nellie Plenty Brothers. She gave him 14 more! That's alot of Bissonettes and some with the same names, if i recall correctly.
I think that the two Fire Thunder families were related some how, cousins maybe. Also, Both families had daughters named Angelique and both born in the same decade. I found a photo of Angeliqe Fire Thunder and Lydia Bluebird at Nat Archives and for a couple of years thought that she was my great grandmother. Wrong. I think the other Angelique also kept a "winter count" for her family. Thought i saw a copy for sale on ebay not too long ago. Charles named a daughter Angelique, also. Kingsley, do you suggest that Foam/Saliva could be Can't Enter Doors father?(Great, another name to add to the family tree.) Eljay
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Post by ephriam on Aug 26, 2010 0:55:54 GMT -5
Thank you for all the great info and ideas. Here is what I have for Lance Owner: - 14 Mar 1877 -- Surrendered at the Red Cloud Agency with No Water's band. He is listed with two other men in his lodge: Fire Thunder and Stinking Foot. (Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger, p. 103)
- probably 14 Mar 1877 -- Assigned to Red Cloud's Band at the Red Cloud Agency, together with Fire Thunder and Stinking Foot (ibid, p. 109).
- 30 Mar 1877 -- Lance Owner and Bad Ree, "hostiles with some women & children" left Red Cloud for Spotted Tail without permission. (ibid. p. 153). "I have the honor to report that the "Bad Ree" & "Lance Owner" with some women & children left here for your Agency, it is supposed and without permission, on the 30" inst. & I would respectfully request that they be directed to return here at once, they recently came from the north." (Johnston to Lee, Mar. 31, 1877, Spotted Tail Agency, Letters Received, p. 548).
- 5 Apr 1877 -- Lt. Lee, agent at Spotted Tail, found Lance Owner. "I have the honor to acknowledge receipt of your communication asking that Lance Owner and Bad Ree, with their families, be sent back to Red Cloud. I found Lance Owner here and shall start him back tomorrow in charge of his son Fast Thunder, who is an Indian soldier here. Bad Ree stopped at Bisnettes, and I have sent him orders to go back at once. Fast Thunder will go by Bisnettes tomorrow and if Bad Ree has not gone he will take him along. Fast Thunder says his father, Lance Owner, intended coming into this agency when he came from the north but he was deceived by the Indians at Red Cloud, and led to believe that it would be all right for him to first stop at Red Cloud, and then he could come here when he wanted to. Of course I know nothing of the circumstances, but I have told Fast Thunder to explain the matter to you, and that if you are satisfied to transfer his father to this agency I will take him up for rations whenever you make the transfer, but that in no case must his father return here without a proper transfer." Lee to Johnson, April 5, 1877, Spotted Tail Agency, Letters Sent, p. 253-254.)
- 9 Apr 1877 -- Officially listed as transferred to Spotted Tail Agency (Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger, p. 98, 153). "I have the honor to state that by order of General Mackenzie, I am directed to transfer the bearer "Lance Owner" with "Fire Thunder" 2 women, 1 girl, 1 boy to your Agency." (Johnston to Lee, April 9, 1877, Spotted Tail Agency Letters Received, p. 558).
- May-June 1877 -- Lance Owner, with Fire Thunder in same family, listed in Loafer Band, Spotted Tail Agency census. (p. 36).
- Fall 1877 -- Disappears from records. Not listed in the transfer list from Spotted Tail to Red Cloud Agency, Oct. 25, 1877 (Fire Thunder, See Two [=Looks Twice] and Foam are listed);
- Dec. 1877 -- possibly listed in census for Spotted Tail Agency (there is a man named Lame Owner listed in Loafer band, transcription error?) (p. 106)
- does not appear in the Red Cloud Agency census, 1878.
I withdraw my earlier guess that Lance Owner and Foam were the same individual; as Kingsley pointed out, they both appear in the May 1877 Spotted Tail Agency census. The fact that Fire Thunder surrendered with Lance Owner and then transferred with him to Spotted Tail and lived in the same family that summer certainly suggests a relationship. And now that we know that Fast Thunder was a son of Lance Owner, we get a new name in our list of possible family members!
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Aug 29, 2010 16:47:33 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar and everyone, I have a question about the A. Gardner photo, 1868, it lists Fire Thunder, Man-Afraid-Of-His-Horses, and Red Bear. Your comment is that the identity is questionable. So, i am wondering why? Are all three identities in question or just one of them? I have a photo of Angelique and she has the same very striking,full, high cheekbone feature as the Fire Thunder in this photo. ( I think that there maybe some restriction on posting her photo here but i'm not sure/Marquette U Collection/Archives). You also mention that there may be even more photos of Fire Thunder. If you have the time, would you please post more. Thank you eljay
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