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Post by jinlian on Dec 10, 2010 5:24:42 GMT -5
Well, that Bear Don't Scare and Guy were in fact one and the same individual is a statement by Joe American Horse and I believe it may be given some authority to him on this (quote: ""Bear Don't Scare (Guy) was an elder son of about seventeen, Cut Ears (Robert) was apparently a nephew of about eighteen, although Pratt believed he too was a son""). If I'm not mistaken, "Walter Red Face"''s name comes from Donovine Sprague's "Rosebud Sioux" (and in the specifics, from the description of the 1879 Choate photo of the Carlisle students). One additional remark: in Sprague's book there's no mention of either Bear Don't Scare or Guy American Horse, while in Carlisle's records of the Sioux students enrolled at the school (http://home.epix.net/~landis/sioux.html) there's no "Walter Red Face", but instead it is listed a "Guy American Horse" (also mentioned in this 1891 document: home.epix.net/~landis/plentyhorses.html) . Personally speaking, I don't think Guy was also known as "Walter Red Face", but there was a simple inaccuracy in the description of the 1879 Choate group photo. The Samuel High Bear -Amos Lone Hill issue is completely different, since they were two distinct individuals, both listed in the Carlisle records and, for that matter, in the Choate photo description as well. Regards.
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Post by jinlian on Dec 8, 2010 17:33:40 GMT -5
I was probably wrong, even if there's some resemblance. Attachments:
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Post by jinlian on Dec 8, 2010 14:27:37 GMT -5
Dietmar, Some time ago I raised more or less this same question in the AH thread. In the specifics, there was a comparison between the photo you've just posted and the one attached, whose label says "Samuel, son of High Bear (left) and "Guy, son of American Horse" (right" working in Carlisle's bakeries. "Samuel" looks a lot like "Amos Lone Hill" and "Guy"'s likeness is quite similar to "Walter Red Face"'s. According to Carlisle records, Guy American Horse was one of the school's first students, returing home in 1882 and died before 1890. American Horse sent two boys and a girl of his household to Carlisle in 1879. According to C. Eastman, the boys were Samuel (to be identified with Tom? See the discussion in the AH thread) and Robert, and the girl was "Maggie". However,, Joe American Horse ( in "The Real All Americans") says that the three were Bear Don't Scare (seventeen at the time) who was after named "Guy", Cut Ears better known as "Robert", who was in fact AH's nephew (brother's son and then "son"?) and Maggie , whose status (daughter or niece) is still unclear. Hope this helps. Regards, J.
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Post by jinlian on Nov 26, 2010 12:36:09 GMT -5
Thanks, grahame, I had the Snake portrait labeled as "Crow man", but haven't seen "Medicine Man" before. About "Snake": I think it's also him in a Haynes group portrait, have to find it in my files,
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Post by jinlian on Nov 26, 2010 12:31:21 GMT -5
Jinlian, Thanks , You I've never seen the shirt up close, so that's nice to know also. On post #4, Elizabeth Young Bear, is the GGranddaughter of Chief Smoke, her mother was Sophie Smoke, her brother Severt's book "Standing in the Light" he lists their family tree. The bones of Chief Smoke were returned to the Young Bear family but it took quite awhile before they were brought home for reburial which was in 1996. He was reburied near the Young Bear home on their private land near Porcupine, South Dakota, with great honor and respect by all Smoke descendants. Many thanks Deb, it's great to have news updated
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Post by jinlian on Nov 21, 2010 14:07:34 GMT -5
Hi Deb, thanks - however, according to the Smithsonian Department of Anthropology there're also bead decorations and that's what my non-pro eyes see too. :-) "The shirt was decorated with well-executed seed beads, a V-shaped neck flap, and a large circular beaded disc attached to the center of the front and back, surrounded by small circular quilled discs. The designs and colors of this early beadwork example have a decidedly Cheyenne look, possibly the result of the tendency of Oglalas to marry Cheyenne women. The back of the shirt has more decorations than the front. According to the accession letter, the back also had a number of horsehair locks dyed yellow and blue along the margins of the beaded bands together with ermine, both winter white and summer brown. " (source: anthropology.si.edu/redcloud/redcloudpage4.htm)
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Post by jinlian on Nov 6, 2010 8:58:49 GMT -5
About the first photo: the man is also identified as "Bull Ear" (and said to be Crow or Mandan or )
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Post by jinlian on Nov 5, 2010 13:40:12 GMT -5
Thanks for this new image - another evidence that Tom and Sam American Horse were in fact one and the same person.
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Post by jinlian on Nov 1, 2010 6:01:18 GMT -5
The attached image is now on sale at ebay, labeled as "Chief American Horse, Sioux, 1919". My best guess about the man's identity would be Tom American Horse, but I'd like to hear other opinions. Thanks , ‹à p.s. Thanks to Jeroen for uploading the giant-size version of the Wild West Show photo with the American Horse detail. Attachments:
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Post by jinlian on Sept 13, 2010 12:23:04 GMT -5
grahamew, henri, jinlian and friends - can we identify Pretty Bull in any of the other Gardner 1868 images from Ft Laramie? Thankyou for the leads Kingsley There're many problems with the identification of the Crow leaders in the F. Laramie photographs by Gardner. I remember a "Yellow Bull" that could be in fact have been our man - have to look for these images in my CDs.
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Post by jinlian on Sept 13, 2010 12:20:23 GMT -5
I must have somewhere a .doc file with all the info and photograph of White Swan we've gathered so far - I'll upload it here, as it would be faster than putting the "missing" images (actually they can be viewed first by right-clicking where the missing image should be, copying the embedded link and opening it in a different window) in a new file-hosting site and then re-uploading them one-by-one.
Diane, Dietmar, please let me know if you think this a suitable solution.
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Post by jinlian on Sept 13, 2010 12:14:13 GMT -5
Hi Jeroen, first, sorry for the missing photographs - it's a problem of the file-sharing service I've used so far. I hope to fix it soon. We had this photograph somewhere in this section (don't remember which thread, sorry), and the man was identified as "Spotted Horse". For a comparison, here's Spotted Horse in a 1880s portrait: and in a Miller photograph (left) , about 1900 I tend to prefer the Spotted Horse identification, but I admit there's some resemblance with Shows-a-Fish/Fish Shows. Attachments:
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Post by jinlian on Aug 21, 2010 4:04:26 GMT -5
Thanks, Jeroen. I wonder if we shouldn't have a White Man Runs Him thread as well...
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Post by jinlian on Aug 20, 2010 8:39:41 GMT -5
Gorgeous, looking just like his father. Thanks, Jeroen.
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Post by jinlian on Aug 17, 2010 12:59:08 GMT -5
Ben American Horse, 1955
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