peter
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Post by peter on Oct 27, 2017 7:59:05 GMT -5
Grahamew, in my opinion, Hamilton and Mitchell were there at the same time, perhaps they were just crossing paths, but chances are they were there at the same time. I think the photographer in the picture is Hamilton, being describe physically as a large man. So if the photographer was Hamilton, who was taking his picture? who was photographing who? We know Mitchell was there in the beginning of September, but we also knew that Hamilton was there in August, but turned out to be that he was there in June and July also. Could it be that they were there at the same time even for only a very little short time? Just wondering.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 26, 2017 18:29:42 GMT -5
Dietmar, I believe what you said too. Great points. In my opinion, all Hamilton photos taken at Camp Robinson and at the White River agencies who did not have his trademark on, his name and Sioux City on, were sold or given away right there at the agencies. The other photos that he was not able to sell or get rid of at the agencies or the nearby places, he took them back to his studio at Sioux City and printed his name and Sioux City on. Those are the ones he sold later on. At least that is the way I see it. That is why some of them have only handwriting written on them and some his name and the Sioux City on.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 26, 2017 13:53:14 GMT -5
Dietmar for the size of the country back then and the population America had back then, the coverage was almost zero or nobody cared. Please show me one newspaper and one newspaper only out East where the death of Crazy Horse made first page. Of course there was some coverage, Newspapers need attention to sell, to justify their jobs. The coverage of Crazy Horse death in comparison other news of the moment it was minimum, peanuts in comparison a big celebrity should have received. It was all smoke, again, I’m not aware of any big newspaper out East that covered his death in the front page. Making second page and not the front cover, meant like playing soccer in the second or third division in the Bundesliga, not the same as the first. The percentage of civilians who went to work every day for a living, knew nothing, very little or care less about Crazy Horse death. It was not exposed nationwide like an important or historical fact. of course everyone at the agencies knew of Crazy Horse. All the military knew of Crazy Horse and perhaps all bunch of people out there, but with Crazy Horse death, so died his fame. It was all forgotten as soon his fame begun. It was all over quickly. Just remember Hamilton son in his speech in front so many people half century later in a major city:” there was an Indian Chief called Crazy Horse”. He did not say:” there was Crazy Horse. He spoke of him like he was sure the audience had never heard of him and rightfully so. Thank God so many years later the Lakota oral history gave him the respect, fame that he deserved, but thanks only to the Lakota people who could not expose him worldwide yet due to the circumstances being subdued by the whites.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 26, 2017 13:04:29 GMT -5
I´m sorry, but I can´t agree. Newspaper coverage about Crazy Horse was nationwide. I have cited a few newspapers as examples, but they all easily can be found online in the Library of Congress archives. In spring 1877, before Hamilton took photos at the agencies, Crazy Horse was one of the few Lakota leaders, and beside Sitting Bull THE most reknown leader, that the military was after. Dozens of articles cover the wait for his surrender in spring 1877. When he was killed in September, all major newspapers wrote about the incident. At least people at the agencies, like Hamilton that year, must have known about him and his importance.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 26, 2017 10:33:34 GMT -5
You are confirming exactly what I said. Barely known to the world out there. Think about when he got killed. It made no news whatsoever. Same few newspapers that you mentioned, perhaps many more, but not a big deal. Never made first page in the East newspapers where the money and the tick population was. Practically almost unknown and the fact that Hamilton had a photo of him in his catalogue, it means that he intended to sell it to the public like the others photos or exploit it to the rest of the world. If he did, he never became reach and so the person who bought it or got it. Hamilton must have sold it for a few dollars or give it away. That it is how much it was worth it at the time a photo of an ugly Indian chief, according to Hamilton son, considered at the time a trouble maker by the military, by the rest of the world and by his own kinsmen who betrayed him at the very end with the exception of some of course.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 26, 2017 8:17:10 GMT -5
Thank you Dietmar. What a great job you did. As you noted, Number one on the list is Spotted Tail and Crazy Horse only 104. What does it tell you?. Just to reply on one of your previous comment on why Hamilton did not try to sell Crazy Horse picture to make money since he was so famous back then as he is now. The answer is, my personal opinion only, that Crazy Horse back then in 1877 was not famous at all. Only the military knew who he was. His war deeds, specially on the Little Big Horn, were at the time not know to the outside world and so to Hamilton. It was in the new century, thanks to the famous interviews done to Crazy Horse contemporaries that the truth about Crazy Horse as a warrior and as a man begun to come out, started to emerge, but back then in 1877, he was known as a leading warrior who resisted white encroachment and was a leader at the leader at Little Big Horn. When he was killed, made page fourth on the largest and most famous papers in the East. Nobody cared. In 1877 the big names to the white civilians were Spotted Tail and Red Cloud. At the "Address of Judge Charles C. Hamilton Before the Academy of Science and Le ers of Sioux City, Iowa November 27, 1928" Hamilton's son Judge Charles, clearly stated that, :" there was a bad Indian called Crazy Horse", like if he wanted to introduce to the crowd Crazy Horse name for the first time. That meant that in 1928, he was sure, that the audience knew very little about Crazy Horse and that was at Sioux City in the Middle West half century later. I can only let you imagine in the East in 1877 a few month later Crazy Horse surrendered, how much Hamilton knew of Crazy Horse greatness and fame. Regards
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 21, 2017 12:49:47 GMT -5
Dietmar, I did come across an other stereo views of Hamilton. It was long time ago and was all different from the one I own. I think it was a Hamilton Kodylik catalogue or Hamilton Hoyt catalogue, but I definitely had a copy of it. Do not recall the names and the tribes the views and who were on that list. I was only concern at the moment at the Northwest stereo views. I might still have it among my notes, but it is like searching a needle in the hay-nest, but it definitely there were more stereo views/catalogues of Hamilton.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 16, 2017 15:13:53 GMT -5
I think you are right. The nose is identical and so the lips, chin and cheekbones. Bravo. Great catch
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 11, 2017 16:11:51 GMT -5
Grahamew, if that image is Crazy Horse, then it was taken in the summer of 1877 by Hamilton. If it is not Crazy Horse, I still think it was taken in the summer of 1877. That was the way all the Indian scouts were dressed that year a Camp Robinson.. Take care
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 10, 2017 17:02:41 GMT -5
No, Grahamew, he is not on the list.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 10, 2017 15:54:10 GMT -5
Thank you Kingsley, your explanations always make things much clear and better. As you know, I was trying to connect the dots and see what months Hamilton was at Camp Robinson. Now I know May is out of the question, but it was June for sure when he was there, always according to his son and his Stereoscopic catalogue views of the northwest. We don not know exactly when, but according to his son, it took him quite some time before he arrived to Camp Robinson to join his father. We know he was there for the sun dance so even if he arrived the same day the sun dance started, taking in consideration the long time it took him to get to Camp Robinson when his father was already there, a good estimation would be the first or second week of June, but I'm only guessing. Definitely at this point Little Bat, Crazy Horse and Hamilton were there at the same time. Anyway, thank you for your precious time and precious news.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 9, 2017 18:16:17 GMT -5
Hi Ephriam and Dietmar, thank for the updates. Ephriam I have read you article numerous time now. I thank you for your work. I just wanted to match the dates and see when approximately Hamilton was at Camp Robinson/Red Cloud Agency. I'm pretty sure you know by now that I think and I'm sure 200% that the Little Bat tintype is Crazy Horse, but just my opinion. Time will tell. But between all my researches and so forth, the only think that made me wonder a bit about the authenticity of the tintype, it was Ephraim article. In his article, Ephraim stated that Hamilton was at Red Cloud, in August, late summer. I also read Ephraim comments in an other forum stating that since it was Little Bat who convinced Crazy Horse to take a picture, this could not have happened because the only photographer at Red Cloud when Crazy Horse was there, was Hamilton in August and according to Little Bat, brother in law, Hunton, Little Bat was there about May 22 to June 4 and June 15 to June 24 but not in August. Since there was no photographer there during that time, June, May and not even July, the Little Bat theory who convinced Crazy Horse to sit for a photo, went out the window. Ephraim hit the nail right on the money. All my Italian friends who believed that the Little Bat tintype was indeed Crazy Horse changed their minds and rightfully so. Ephraim had done a great work and great researches and we always will be in debt with him and his work, but there was a but. I went back to read the article from the "Annals of Iowa" very careful and I connected a few more dots. Hamilton son spoke about witnessing and taking photographs during a sun dance while he was there with his father and immediately the bulb lit up. I remembered that such a sun dance took place in June 26 and ended in June 29 and right there and there I knew, I understood that Hamilton was there the end of June and the all month of July too. So far just a few days short of when Little Bat was there always according to his brother in law. Then I went back and read the article more careful. His son stated that his father was already there at Camp Robinson waiting for the band of Lame Deer to surrender and that when he decided that all was clear and safe he called for him to go down to Camp Robinson. What does this mean? It means that between the time that Hamilton called for his son and by the time the son arrived from the Black Hills, it must have passed at least one to two weeks and even if the son had arrived just the day of the sun dance and giving the benefit of the doubt going back even one week, it brings the dates back that match perfectly the time that Little Bat was there when Crazy Horse and Hamilton were there too. We also know that the Lame Deer fight took place on May 7th and that Hamilton on his Stereoscopic views marked down:" # 107 Surrender of Lame's Deer Band". Now we know that from Lame Deer Montana and Fort Robinson Nebraska there are about 350 miles. The pioneers of the Oregon trail averaged about 18 to 20 miles at day. Lets say the survivors of Lame Deer band did even less, 15 miles. That will bring us to May 27th when they arrived at Camp Robinson, just an approximation. I think by then that Hamilton was already there, but even if you are talking an average of ten miles a day, it still brings us in the beginning of June when Little Bat was there the very first time. Personally I think, my opinion only, that Hamilton was already at Camp Robinson by the end of May, perhaps the beginning of June, but not later than that. Plenty time to be there with Little Bat and plenty times, almost two months to take pictures at Red Cloud/Camp Robinson, more than half of the time he spent at Spotted Tail. As I have already stated, every day we discover something knew. I salute the researches that Ephraim is doing and my hat goes off to him for all his tireless work he is doing for our country.
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 9, 2017 16:40:12 GMT -5
Dietmar, not to worry, you can post( scan) from # 1 to # 230, all the photo listed, so everybody can see all the photos Hamilton had on his "Stereoscopic Catalogue Views of the Northwest".
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 6, 2017 12:50:36 GMT -5
Hi Ephriam, thanks for your reply. Without touching anymore the tintype/photograph issue of Crazy Horse, I would love to communicate with you about photographs in general, photographers and so forth. You are one of the best for sure. I just want to point out that is true that Hamilton produced, as you stated,portraits at Spotted Tail and he used hanging blanket as backdrop, so true, but he did not have any other alternative. His son stated that at Spotted Tail, his father set a portable studio, small in size in my opinion, and could not have set up any big backdrop. So far so good. At Red Cloud instead there was a studio with skylight and pretty big in dimension, plenty room there to set up a portable backdrop, exactly like the backdrop of the Little Bat tintype. Regarding the 104 image, it could very well be the Little Bat tintype or perhaps one of the three photographs Crazy Horse was photographed on horseback or perhaps one taken on the Sun Dance or when he went to the Spotted Tail agency on his way there, we do not know, but chance are that he took a photo of him. He had a lots of opportunities and plenty time and he knew who Crazy Horse was and where his camp was. I know in the past you stated that Hamilton was in the vicinity of Crazy Horse only in August, but according to his son he was also there in June, July and perhaps even in May. These last three months was the time when Crazy Horse was not defiant towards the white people and would do anything to show his good intention towards them, those were the months that Little Bat was there and that was the period that Crazy Horse would have posed for a picture. Regarding Tom Buecker, he did not show me those photos, but he said that he knew of those two photos with the same backdrop and where the backdrop originated. He even told me the name of one of them, but was not sure if it was Red Cloud or Red Feather, but the name started with Red. Tom, mentioned the same backdrop of the Little Bat tintype putting it in writing in the Greasy Grass magazine, confirming exactly what he had told me in 1989 ten years before that the same backdrop was from a photographer from Sioux City. Many years later he told me that that studio belonged to Hamilton and a partner. Regards Peter
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peter
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Post by peter on Oct 6, 2017 12:49:57 GMT -5
Hi Peter: You are right that over the last ten years, we have learned a great deal more about photographers working among the Lakota, including those who visited the Red Cloud Agency. We now know there were a number of different photographers who visited the agency in 1877. The newspaper reporter Robert Strahorn mentions a studio in operation in January 1877, though he did not mention the artist's name. The Sidney Telegraph noted that Charles L. Hamilton operated a temporary studio in that town from Dec. 1876 to Feb. 1877 before heading north to the Black Hills. This would have taken him through the Red Cloud Agency, though no images have been positively identified to him so far. (He is best known for his work in Sioux City and on the Upper Missouri a decade earlier). During the summer of 1877, we know of at least two other photographers visiting the agency: James H. Hamilton (a brother of Charles) from Sioux City, Iowa, as well as Daniel S. Mitchell, who had closed his studio in Cheyenne before making the trip. Two additional photographers came later that fall after Crazy Horse had already died: Private Charles Howard, a soldier with an Army road mapping expedition (who photographed Crazy Horse's grave), and Mr. David Rodocker, a Kansas photographer who was on his way home from a quick trip to the Black Hills. Both of the photographers known to have been at Red Cloud at the same time as Crazy Horse did make native portraits. D. S. Mitchell was the most focused on producing a portfolio of portraits of Oglala leaders. He brought a painted backdrop with him from Cheyenne; it appears in the background of many of his portraits and is very different from the one in the tintype in question. There is the wonderful published tintype of Big Bat and William Garnet, one of my favorite images, that shows Mitchell's painted backdrop behind them, dating this image to the summer-fall of 1877. While most of Hamilton's photographs were outdoor views, he did also produce some portraits, particularly at the nearby Spotted Tail Agency. In each of these, he used a hanging blanket as a backdrop. I am not aware of any painted backdrops in any of Hamilton's portraits from the agencies. Peter is correct that Hamilton listed among his numbered series of stereoviews a view labeled "Crazy Horse." Many of these stereoviews are numbered lightly within the image and can be matched to the numbered labels on the back. I am not aware that the image of Crazy Horse has yet been identified based on that number but I feel certain that one day an example will turn up. The recent Buckley collection is a great example of how more new images continue to be discovered. While we are now well aware that there were photographers at Red Cloud in 1877, I still believe that the tintype in question is from the 1880s. That of course is a subjective opinion based on the clothing style and I am fully willing to revise my interpretation with new evidence. I agree with everyone that ultimately it will be the backdrop that will help to solve this little mystery. I am not aware that any other images with this backdrop have yet been found. Tom Buecker and I have had many conversations about images and the Red Cloud Agency; he did not show me any images with the same backdrop. No doubt we will one day find more examples with this distinct painted canvas backdrop, like a fingerprint that will help identify the photographer and better bracket the time-frame. I for one anxiously await the discovery and publication of such images! Ephriam Ephriam, Do you mean this photo of Big Bat Pourier and Billy Garnett aka Hunter? My scan lacks the quality to show the backdrop recognizable.
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