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Post by Dietmar on Jan 15, 2019 11:02:08 GMT -5
Thank you for the picture, Peter.
Weren´t Trager & Kuhn located in Chadron?
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Post by grahamew on Jan 15, 2019 17:25:53 GMT -5
1881, Fort Randall. Probably Cross (originally) Another was taken at the time:
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Post by grahamew on Jan 15, 2019 17:28:59 GMT -5
Didn't think it would come out that large!!!
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Post by Californian on Jan 17, 2019 22:26:04 GMT -5
I have a couple of copies of prints from the same session of this this group photo, mine have no photographer's hallmark - mine are period albumen prints but probably already re-prints as this one from the Chadron NE photographer certainly is. I heard too that it is believed by some to be by William Richard Cross [1839-1907], but given the fact that Sitting Bull was something of a superstar - I believe he would have made sure to take credit for it and much more, capitalized on it. I personally think these two photographs are actually by J.N. Templeman of Miller, Dakota Territory. He would have been dead by 1890 and thus the likelihood of his photographs getting duplicated unchallenged would have been more so possible.
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Post by Californian on Jan 17, 2019 22:33:29 GMT -5
Still think this is a Scott photo and that it's later than 83. hi Grahamew, its year later since we last exchanged opinions about this image, I have acquired in the meantime another, similarly posed image, had the same kind of feel to it - Running Water and that one is on the original card stock of George W. Scott, thus I have to agree with you that this iconic image of SB is by the latter. Knowing that that D.F. Barry even reproduced and sold SB images by William Notman & Son of Montreal confirms that he liberally used the work of other photographers. Now I would date it around 1888 or even 1889.
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Post by grahamew on Jan 18, 2019 2:24:30 GMT -5
I have a couple of copies of prints from the same session of this this group photo, mine have no photographer's hallmark - mine are period albumen prints but probably already re-prints as this one from the Chadron NE photographer certainly is. I heard too that it is believed by some to be by William Richard Cross [1839-1907], but given the fact that Sitting Bull was something of a superstar - I believe he would have made sure to take credit for it and much more, capitalized on it. I personally think these two photographs are actually by J.N. Templeman of Miller, Dakota Territory. He would have been dead by 1890 and thus the likelihood of his photographs getting duplicated unchallenged would have been more so possible. View AttachmentView AttachmentWhoever, it must be 'early' comparing it to the Goff and the images taken at Fort Randall.
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Post by gregor on Jan 18, 2019 7:46:06 GMT -5
Sitting Bull's mother passed away in 1884, so that is the last possible year.
Toksha, Gregor
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Post by grahamew on Jan 18, 2019 10:56:20 GMT -5
Just looked at the PDF file in the first post of this topic and the Smithsonian attributes the photo to a photographer or studio 'Miller' so it may well be Templeman.
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Post by grahamew on Jan 18, 2019 13:53:08 GMT -5
Another Sitting Bull photo referenced in the PDF. However, rather than depicting March of Civilization Bismark Sept 3-5, 1883, it would seem to show the March of Civilization at the Constitutional Convention, Bismarck, 07 04 1889 and according to James McLaughlin, no less: "The picture I received in your letter of the l0th instant, was taken by D. F. Barry, photographer at Bismarck, on July 4, 1889. When I again, at the request of officials of North Dakota, and of the City of Bismarck in particular, took a party of Indians — men, women and children, about five hundred in number—to be present upon the occasion of the convening of the constitutional convention for the State of North Dakota, the members of the said constitutional convention being escorted by these 500 Indians of the Standing Rock Reservation, two troops of cavalry and two companies of infantry from Fort Yates, and two companies of infantry with a section of battery from Fort Lincoln, together with certain militia companies from different parts of the state. I had prepared the Indian part of this procession with a view to its historical aspect, by having the Indian section in five platoons; the first platoon being composed of but three Indians, namely: Bearded Chin, as chief of the lower Yanktonai Sioux of the Cannonball District, who was dressed up to represent "Brother Jonathan," Black Bull, a prominent Indian soldier of Chief Two Bears band of Yanktonai, carrying the United States flag, and an Indian named Red Horse, carrying a banner on which were the words, "March of Civili- zation." These three men were about ten yards in advance of the next platoon, whose banner was, "Dakota as a Territory," which platoon was comprised of the Indians, both men and women, in full Indian costume, behind which they had ponies and dogs hitched to travels, led by women and children as though marching on the plains. Following this platoon at about a distance of ten yards came the next platoon, which was composed of a section of thirty U. S. Indian police in new uniforms, and upon their banner, which was carried alongside of the U. S. flag, were the words, "Law and Order." About ten yards behind this third section, came the judges of the Indian police court, namely: John Grass, Chief Gall and Chief Mad Bear. Upon their banner was the scale and weights and the word "Justice." About ten yards behind this section came about two hundred Indians, chiefly young and middle-aged men and women, all of the men being dressed in new hats and linen dusters, and the women dressed entirely in white, women's style, and as the day was exceedingly warm many of them carried umbrellas. Their banner, which they carried alongside of the U. S. flag in the front column, held the words, "State of North Dakota, 1889." Sitting Bull appeared in the column of the Indians representing "Dakota as a Territory." He was on foot and marched in the front rank of the column near the middle. Every want of the Indians was fully supplied by the committee who had charge of looking after the welfare of the Indians, and that day is frequently spoken of yet among the Indians of the Standing Rock Reservation. It was unfortunate that some accident occurred to Photographer Barry which prevented him from taking the picture that he desired, and the picture you have, shows the Indians as they were coming from the south side of the railroad track, where they were encamped, to the main road, to take their places in the procession, and does not do the occasion full justice, but as you saw the parade yourself, you can supply much that is lacking in the picture." So he was there, but he's not the man with the flag and he would be too far back to see in the photo.
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Post by gregor on Jan 18, 2019 16:56:50 GMT -5
Hi grahamew, great Information , completely new to me. I accept McLaughlins Information with one exception: I can't believe that Sitting Bull was there. SB was visited by Caroline "Catherine" Weldon about that Time ( according to the Bismarck Tribune of July 2, 1889). And she and S B had some troubles with McLaughlin. About this time, the Land Commission was expected on the Lakota Reservations, and about July 20/23 the Commission arrived at Standing Rock. Sitting Bull was the main opponent of the commission. Is it conceivable that he then participated in the march in Bismarck - to do a favor to McLaughlin? I am not convinced . When did Mclaughlin write the text quoted above? In his later years? Maybe he has confused the years. Or he liked to portray himself as SB's master. The only one who could impose his will on SB. Difficult to imagine.Grass, Gall or Red Horse would march for McLaughlin, But not S B. My opinion, but who knows.
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Post by Californian on Jan 18, 2019 22:36:39 GMT -5
Just looked at the PDF file in the first post of this topic and the Smithsonian attributes the photo to a photographer or studio 'Miller' so it may well be Templeman. Thank you all - appreciate it. The power of multiple minds and deduction at its best . I am now more so than ever convinced these are by J. N. Templeman. There's a curious little detail - the pipe S.B. holds in his hands - it is actually a design/format more typical and familiar to the the Ojibwa nation, not Lakota or Dakota. Of course it is known that often photographers furnished props for their subjects to wear or hold in their hands, but then usually in a true studio setting. I thought that I should share this.
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Post by grahamew on Jan 19, 2019 5:36:05 GMT -5
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Post by gregor on Feb 2, 2019 10:44:09 GMT -5
Once again, I read some documents and thought about the parade and the claim that Sitting Bull participated and carried the flag. The Dakota Territory was split into two states with the “Enabling Act of 1889”. The first Constitutional convention of North Dakota, assembled in the city of Bismarck, July 4th to Aug. 17th, 1889. A constitutional convention parade took place at Bismarck, July 4, 1889, at Main and 4th streets. The parade was headed by Military Forces from Fort Yates under Major Fechet and included a delegation of about 500 Lakotas from Standing Rock Reservation. The group was led by a man carrying the American Flag in western clothes. Another man carries a sign that reads “The March of Civilization”. A second sign reads: Dakota as a Territory. It is held by a Lakota leader wearing traditional clothing. The sign implies that conflicts with Indians are part of North Dakota’s territorial past and that civilization has replaced Indian cultures on the northern Great Plains. The “March of Civilization” seems to go back to McLaughlin, who organized and transported the Lakotas to Bismarck. He assembled the 5 part march as follows: 1st: “the orators” (= celebrity), 2nd: The representation of the “old way”, 3rd: The Indian Police (McLaughlin’s “role models”), 4th: the Tribal Judges and 5th: the “New Indians”. According to Donovin Arleigh Sprague Hunkpapa Medicine man Hairy Chin led the parade, dressed as “Uncle Sam” (see David F. Barry Photograph). Some sources say he was in the advance party, some say (eg PBS) he was the last of the Lakota group. Hairy Chin died only three days after performing as Uncle Sam in the parade (pneumonia?). In the known Photograph of “The march …” I can’t identify neither Hairy Chin nor Sitting Bull. In Publications on “History of North Dakota“ we often read „A big parade celebrated the event; five hundred Sioux from Standing Rock, led by Sitting Bull, who carried a huge American flag, took part.” This statement/sentence seems to rely on McLaughlin publications. During the times of the St. Paul Visit, the “Sitting Bull Combination” and SBs participation with Buffalo Bills Wild West (1884 – 1885) there seems to be somehow a Business relationship between McLaughlin and the chief. However, after the Wild West Tour ended and with the upcoming negotiations with the Land Commission in Washington (October 1888) the relations were strained. In summer 1889 the Land Commission under Crook travelled the Reservations (Rosebud, Pine Ridge in June 1889 and Cheyenne River and Standing Rock in July) and Sitting Bull knew the results via Weldon. And we know that SB persisted in his defiance of McLaughlin’s authority. He was no District Farmer and no Indian Judge as Gall or John Grass in the 1887 to 1889 years. And McLaughlin disliked SB from the very beginning and had an ongoing disrespect for the chief. So, why should SB take part in the parade or carry the flag? In my opinion he did not, here some thoughts/facts: In summer (June/July) Weldon arrived at Standing Rock, and was thrown off the Reservation in September. We know that SB was ill with pneumonia about that time. On June 18th, 1889 the Yankton Daily Press reported that SB “…was now healthy enough to be interviewed..” And the Bismarck daily Tribune of July 2nd, 1889 reported that Weldon (“Wilder”) had a quarrel with McLaughlin, because the agent didn’t permit SB to travel to Pine Ridge. In a letter of July 3rd, 1889 Carolin Weldon writes to Red Cloud, that McLaughlin denied a pass for Sitting Bull to travel to Pine Ridge to discuss the Land issue. And last but not least: 2 children with Four Robes died in 1889; it is said that a girl died in early summer. That is the time frame. Is it conceivable that the man now gladly participates in a celebration and cheerfully swings the flag of a hated system? Not for me. So, why does McLaughlin then claim that he participated in the parade? SB was a celebrity even after his death. McLaughlin was probably the best and most effective agent in Lakota Reservation history. He'd gotten Gall, Grass, Low Dog, Crow King and others under control. But not Sitting Bull. A stain on his “white vest”. After SB s death, the chief could not defend himself and now McLaughlin determined the image of the chief in public. And it should look like he, McLaughlin, was able to direct his Indians at his will. If I – McLaughlin - want SB to go to St. Paul or to join Buffalo Bill, or to swings the flag on a parade – he has to. McLaughlin believed that or he wanted the public to believe this. As said, my opinion. But I'm open to docs and facts outside the "Mclaughlin area"
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Post by grahamew on Feb 3, 2019 6:07:48 GMT -5
If it is Hairy Chin, it certainly doesn't look like he has his Uncle Sam outfit on. I can't help thinking that the reason Sitting Bull was identified as the flag bearer (though not by McLaughlin in the statement I posted above, where he identifies the man as Black Bull) is because the clothing he's got on resembles those in the photo where he wears the hat and Metis style jacket (which is probably by Scott). Here's a sketch showing the laying of the cornerstone of the Capitol building in Bismarck, 1883 - another event that Sitting Bull attended and, occasionally, the photo under discussion has been said the represent that - wrongly. Present were Ulysses S. Grant, who laid the cornerstone, James J. Hill, of the Great Northern; President Henry Willard, of the Northern Pacific; newspaper publisher Joseph Pulitzer, Sitting Bull, General H.H. Sibley and W.D. Washburn, and Chicago merchant Marshall Field. Artist Henry Farny was also there and supposedly introduced Sitting Bull to Grant (though whether or not he drew or painted the scene, I don't know) (see www.kshs.org/publicat/khq/1950/1950february_taft.pdf). Sitting Bull arrived by train from Fort Yates with McLaughlin and Flying By, Spotted Horn Bull, Crow Eagle, Tall as the Clouds, Grey Eagle, Tomahawk, Two Bears (the Yanktonai leader); the next day, Young Fire Heart, Long Dog and Long Soldier arrived and they all rode in a parade. Sitting Bull later presided over a dance and sold photographs of himself. I'm guessing that's Sitting Bull on the platform wearing a feather The only photo of the event I can find is this, but it appears to be the reverse angle to the sketch: While I'm on the topic of artistic representations of Sitting Bull, this is by W. Gilbert Gaul and was supposedly painted from life at Standing Rock in September 1890. I'm not convinced that it doesn't look an awful lot like one of Barry's portraits, though he certainly was at Standing Rock and painted a number of realistic scenes of life on the reservation (something about the use of shadow and light gives me the impression he may have taken photos and used them as a basis for his paintings) as well as being responsible for a number of romanticised ones...
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Post by grahamew on Feb 4, 2019 8:24:59 GMT -5
Managed to find another illustration of the laying of the conerstone from Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper: Unfortunately, I can't read the text and the picture of Sitting Bull from the article is a sketch based on Goff's photo not one from his actual appearance at the event.
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