Touch The Cloud

[brock]

I have noticed a rumor circulating the net that Touch The Cloud was not at the Battle of the Little Bighorn because he was obtaining rations. I spoke to the family about this and they tell me that Touch The Cloud's wife Light Woman had a nephew who had lost his family. He was granted permission to use the Touch The Cloud name. The nephew went by Paul Touch The Cloud. Paul stayed on the rez and did not participate in the battle of the Little Bighorn.

Also they told me that Touch The Cloud had no 's' on the end of it that seems to be added quite often.

[ephriam]

Hi Brock:

I think the evidence strongly supports that Touch the Cloud was not at the Little Bighorn.

1. He was present at the Cheyenne River Agency council on July 29, 1876. He is listed in the council proceedings as "Push the Cloud, son of the late Lone Horn," clearly indicating that it was he and not another relative. Granted, this by itself does not rule out Touch the Cloud being at the Little Bighorn; he would have had a month to get back to Cheyenne River after the battle, which could have easily been accomplished.

2. None of the many first person native accounts mention Touch the Cloud as being present at the Little Bighorn. Given his role as a leader among the Minneconjou, I find that very compelling. The only possible identification I am aware of is from Flying By who listed Lone Horn as being at the Little Bighorn. Since Lone Horn had died the previous winter, it is a possible reference to the son.

3. But most compelling, a reporter interviewing the Lakota delegation visiting Washington, D.C. in the fall of 1877 specifically stated that Touch the Cloud was not at the Little Bighorn. Presumably this information came from Touch the Cloud himself.

I recognize that there is an oral history tradition that says that Touch the Clouds was there. I will have to go back and check my notes but my recollection is that I spoke to a different descendant a couple of years ago who understood that he was not there. Perhaps further work on the oral history at Cheyenne River might yield some additional information on this. But at least at this point, I think the evidence supports that he was not there.

ephriam

[brock]

Ephriam,

I respectfully disagree.

On point one the family does not disagree that he went back to the rez after the battle. As far as the timing to get back I know from the Victory Ride in 2003 and 2007 where the Lakota youth rode their horses all the way from Dupree, SD on the west side of the Cheyenne River rez to the Indian Memorial at the Little Bighorn Battlefield (360 miles) that the first time it took 21 days and the second time 18 days. And that was with inexperienced riders, children 7-8 years old and horses that were not used to being ridden so much. So it took everyone including the horses about 10-12 days just to get into shape. Once we did, a 30+ mile ride per day was easy and on more than one day we rode over 40 miles. This was all without trailering a single mile. So when you juxtapose that against a warrior that rode all the time with a horse in prime shape I'd say that the 33 days between the end of the battle and the meeting is more than plenty of time to get there and even relax for awhile.

As far as whether someone is mentioned or not while recounting a battle they've been in, I have been in battle and I have had to tell stories of battles on occasion. I normally just talk about my own experience and those I could see and hear within a small area immediately around me. Talking about our leaders is not something that a soldier or warrior normally does a lot of unless pushed. I have read very few of the old Lakota interviews where the interviewee was pushed very hard. In the heat of battle you do not watch your leader, you watch in the direction that the bullets being fired at you come from. You know Ernie LaPointe, he was in battle, ask him.

Let's put it on a personal level. If I asked everyone in this forum what they did at work, those that told me would tell me what they did. Would they tell me about their boss? Most probably would not, because that wasn't the question. Does that mean they have no boss? Hardly. So unless these interviews specifically ask about Touch The Cloud when the interviewees were asked about what they did at the battle then I have a hard time accepting it.

As far as point three, I have read the papers of that era and there's not a lot of difference journalistically between them and the current day tabloids. But lets say that what you surmise is true and Touch The Cloud did say what you claim. We both know that the feelings towards the Lakota from white society in general in 1877 were not good because of what had happened the previous year. So why would he want to make himself a flashpoint in the center of the white man's world? Why would he even talk to a strange white man? It's not like the Lakota knew what newspapers were, let alone reporters. Did the reporter have an interpreter? Who was he? Too many loose ends.

Finally I know from my experiences that quite often the truth does not come out right away. When I first met the Clown family I specifically asked if Crazy Horse had a sister. They said no. Six months later they showed me a picture of Iron Cedar with her husband and that she was their great grandmother and Crazy Horse's half sister. I reminded them that they said he had no sister. They told me they just wanted to see where the story went. So unless you are willing to commit to spend a lot of time with the individual families will you receive anything close to full trust. But I think that can be said pretty much of anyone when a stranger approaches you and asks about your family. It's human. Not just among the Natives.

So my apologies, but I don't find the 'evidence' you have presented compelling at all.

[brock]

Had an opportunity to talk to Doug War Eagle who has been given power of attorney on Touch The Cloud matters by his descendants.

They plan to question the statue outside Reliant Park in Houston.

In any event in preparing their oral history in written form he gave me Touch The Cloud's probate information over the phone and thought it was of interest because Touch The Cloud himself gave the information of his death bed.

The interview was conducted by John Makes It Long and there is a notation that Makes It Long asked him if he had ever seen any chiefs killed in battle and Touch Cloud said he had seen the Two Kettle band's Big Crow killed by Crows in 1858.

Touch The Cloud was born in 1839 and died on September 5, 1905.

He was the son of Lone Horn and Stands On Ground who had a second name of Little Old Woman.

1) Touch The Cloud married an Unknown wife and had and unknown infant son. They both died. (Doug told me he suspects whatever happened was too painful for him to talk about and probably said he didn't want to talk about the dead.)

2) His second wife is listed at 'Lightly' and she was born in 1843 and died in 1893 at age 52. She died in the same year as her mother, Nancy Good Horse who died at 73. (Doug told me this is the woman that is listed as Light Woman and that the meaning of her name is that she walked softly or walked like a little girl). He had four children with her.

Child #1) Daughter: Struck At born 1860 also known as Beats Her With A Stick and Swings At. She died as a teenager and had no children. (Doug told me she must have been feisty to have those names).

Child #2) Son: Amos Charging First born 1861. Lakota name is Across The Room. He married Nanie All Bad who was born in 1860. Nanie's mother was Nancy All Bad who was born in 1826. They had no children.

Child #3) Daughter: Ellen Warrior Woman born in 1869. Lakota name Hatchet Looks Around. Had one boy named Hair Coat who was born in 1891 and died in 1893. She had no more children. Her husband is not listed.

Child #4) Daughter: Francis Important Woman also known as Chief Woman born 1874. Married Clayton In The Hold. They had one daughter named Francine In The Hold who married Brings White. (Doug told me that Francine had two children, one with her husband named True Brings White and another with an unknown father who was adopted by the Hump family and his name is David Hump. They are the ones who have given power of attorney to Doug as they both still live. Francine went on to marry a rancher in Wyoming but had no kids with him. Doug told me he was able to meet Francis Important Woman when relatives brought her to their house in the 1960s in a 4-door 1950s Chevy. She was in her 90s at the time.).

3) Touch The Cloud and Lightly divorced at an unknown time.

4) Touch The Cloud married Very Yellow and they had no children. (No info on Very Yellow)

5) Touch The Cloud gave his name to a young woman and claimed her as his daughter in 1895. Her name was Rosie Touch The Cloud who was pregnant and needed help getting rations. She was listed in the ledgers as his daughter but she was neither his daughter nor his wife but just a girl that needed help. Her baby lived three days.

Thought I would share.

By the way Doug told me that he has a letter written by Amos Charging First to the military in the early 1900s asking for the $200 and the horse that was promised for bringing Crazy Horse into Fort Robinson. Charging First actually just accompanied Crazy Horse and Touch The Cloud on the trip but found out it was never awarded so he tried to get it.

[ephriam]

Thank you, Brock, for sharing this. There is some great information here!

ephriam

[kingsleybray]

Thanks, Brock for the information. Here is what I have on Touch the Clouds - his siblings and children. It fits pretty well with yours, but you have clarified one or two of the ambiguities.


Lone Horn had at least six children surviving to adulthood by his three main wives. In likely order of birth, they were:

• Touch the Clouds born 1836-37 mother: Stands on Ground
• Her Iron Cane born ca. 1840-45 mother: Stiff Leg
• Four Horses born ca. 1845-50 mother: Wind
• Talks About Him born 1851/52 mother: Stiff Leg
• Standing Elk born 1855 mother: Stands on Ground
• Two White Cows born 1862 mother: Stands on Ground


Touch the Clouds’ Children

Touch the Clouds’ family: he was born between 1836 and 1839, and he married at ca. 1860 a woman called variously Light Woman, Womanly, or simply Woman, born 1837-38. Their eldest child, born 1861, was Charging First, later christened Amos, and nicknamed Tiyopte, Across the Lodge. He also bore his grandfather’s name Lone Horn. Amos died in the late 1930s. Touch the Clouds’ other children seem to have been all girls. The 1886 Cheyenne River census lists three daughters of Touch the Clouds:
• Warrior age 17 born 1869
• Nellie age 16 born 1870
• Mary age 11 born 1875

The 1891 census lists seemingly another daughter
• Chief Woman age 17 born 1874
Perhaps this is Jenny Touch the Clouds, noted in the family genealogy. The genealogy lists four daughters, of whom only one can be explicitly identified with one of the census names above – Warrior or Mrs Hatchet Looks Around. Besides Jenny, the others listed in the genealogy are Mrs Francis In the Hole, and Wood Pecker.

Your information, Brock, shows that Mrs Francis in the Hole and Important Woman are one and the same. Wood Pecker may be another name for the daughter who Doug named as Beats Her With A Stick. I confess to some confusion about the daughters named in 1886 as Warrior and Nellie. Presumably one of them is Doug's Ellen Warrior Woman.

The 1891 census also lists a ‘son’, otherwise unknown:
• Edward Porter age 20 born 1871
With the notation that he was then enrolled at the off-reservation Santee Boarding School.

[brock]

Kingsley,

I'm not sure what family genealogy you speak of. Ed Brings White and Dave Hump are the elders of the Touch The Cloud family. Probates are very tough to get unless you can prove you are directly related. They are legal sworn documents that determine heirs to a person's estate. Touch The Cloud died late enough to where he had probate papers. If the family you speak of can produce his probate papers on their own, then they are of the family, if not......

As far as Jenny Touch The Cloud, don't know. But my experience in discussions with numerous Lakota on the rez, they were less than concerned about accuracy than they were about how well they would eat. I mean if somebody came to your home and wanted a count of those in your house and you knew the answer would affect how well you ate or didn't eat...wouldn't you consider a way to fudge if you could...if for no other reason than just because you wanted the best for your family? She probably was a real person but beyond that who knows.

As far as Edward Porter, once again I don't know. I presented the probate as it was presented to me.

As far as Lone Horn's children list, it is missing two names, a boy named Frog from Stands On Ground and a girl named Plenty Clothes from Stiff Leg. Doug War Eagle is a direct descendant of Lone Horn through Talks About Him so he has probates there too. And I don't think the order is accurate in the dates. I have a hard time buying in that Stands On Ground had children 18 and 25 years after her first child especially in those days.

[kingsleybray]

Thanks for the update, Brock. I rechecked my information and I need to add as you said, a daughter by Stiff Leg named Plenty Clothes.

My information has come via Carl Dupree, Leonard Little Finger at Pine Ridge, and Lucille Runs After in Rapid City, who is the granddaughter of Two White Cows, Lone Horn's youngest daughter.

If we assume for the sake of argument that Stands on Ground (Little Old Woman), Lone Horn's senior wife, was about 20 when she married him, say a year or so before the birth of Touch the Clouds, then we have a ballpark birth year of about 1818. (Lone Horn himself stated at the Ft Laramie treaty council in 1868 that he was then 53 years old, so born about 1814 or 1815.) She would then have been 44 in 1862, the year she gave birth to Two White Cows.

James R. Walker, the physician at Pine Ridge around 1900, who wrote the classic paper on the Oglala Sun Dance, did another paper on birth statistics obtained by interviewing his female patients. Averageing out his stats he found that most married women who survived continued to have children into their mid-40s, so Stands on Ground's case was not too unusual. She was the senior wife in age, so the fact she bore his eldest as well as his youngest surviving children suggests to me that she was also Lone Horn's real favourite as companion. Kind of a nice insight into family life I thought.

On the first Crazy Horse DVD it was mentioned that Stands on Ground and her sisters were related to the Red Leaf family. This should mean they came from the most prominent family within the Wazhazha band of Sichangu (Rosebud Brules). Do Doug and his family have any more information on the family background that Stands and her sisters came from? Many thanks

Kingsley

[brock]

Yes I know Carl quite well. After I posted last I thought I had heard the name Jenny before and gave it a 90% chance you would name Carl. He and the Clowns had a falling out in about 2006 and he asked to talk to me at the time so he could explain his position. I won't say anymore other than the fact that I still like him.

I know who Leonard Little Finger is, never met. He was a preservation officer just like Carl. I never heard his name bantered at all with other family members. Don't know Lucille Runs After. I could probably find out with a phone call but maybe when I have gathered more questions on other things to make it worth my while.

In any event finding the answer to why Jenny's not on the probate is on you. Carl and I stopped conversing after that conversation although I talk occasionally with his brother.

Yes, there's an outside chance that a woman in her mid forties could have a child in the 1860s but I still need to ask questions because percentages are against it with no disrespect to Dr Walker or even Dr Spock (to me this fertility thing is universal).

As far as Red Leaf, what I know right now is he was the brother to head man Yellow Leaf. His great grandson Peter Talks was given Red Leaf's name and his brother George was given Yellow Leaf's name. Peter lived until 1969 (I think he was in his late 80s/early 90s, I'll have to check) and was fluent in Cheyenne as well as Lakota because his Mom was Cheyenne. He was Floyd, Doug, and Don's great grandpa. I'm pretty sure you'll get an argument from the Clowns on the Wazhazha Sicangu label. Please excuse if I don't always reply promptly...I got to go back to work.

[brock]

I know, I know, I said I'd leave it alone but I found out why there is no talk on Leonard Little Finger among the family. Can't find anybody in the family that considers him family. I know the Pine Ridge tribal court proclaimed him the rightful heir to a 'Bigfoot' lock of hair in a museum in Massachusetts. That's his claim to credibility. However they didn't use probates in the tribal court case. They used the Gordon MacGregor Papers prepared for the BIA in the late 1930s/40 as the criteria to decide Spotted Elk's heir. That's a pretty darn low bar. I know somebody that does have the probate as the heir to Spotted Elk. So Leonard should have a probate too, don't you think?

[brock]

I talked to Doug today and he said that Leonard is a indeed a relative, he is an 'in-law' to their family through Four Horses. So I stand corrected. However, he also said that Calvin Spotted Elk was the direct relative to Spotted Elk and not Leonard and so there is some controversy surrounding that particular affair. Probates would have helped.

He also told me that Lucille Runs After is also an 'in-law' through the Hump family...so now I know.

Also found out Talks About Him was born in 1850 and died June 1, 1901 (according to probate papers). Doug has more but anyone who knows him knows he has family papers stacked about a foot high in one knapsack and about 6 inches high in another with no filing system. So sometimes you have to wait.

[Dietmar]

I know you guys disagree over some things , but this is an very interesting thread, so thank you all immensely!

There is a new portrait of Touch The Cloud, taken when he was in Washington as a delegate in 1877 by photographer Julius Ulke:


Touch The Cloud 1877

Thanks to the people of the Material Culture yahoo club for letting me know about the California State Park online archive!

[grahamew]

Hmmm... wonder if there are alternate views of Little Wound and American Horse out there...

[bringswhite]

Some of the info above is in error . I am the descendant of Touch the Cloud (Mahpiya I Pato) who is the son of Lone Horn (He wan zica) . We are relatives to Spotted Elk and His Horse is Wild . I will not elaborate on that, but you may . I am privilaged to read the information that has been gathered and the interest shown . Pilamaya elo . It is also important to understand that the era in question certain claims can be made and confirmed but it was better to keep that information from the europeano authority who were understandably thought to be vindictive .

[hreinn]

Bringswhite;
Good to see you writing here.
I hope you will write more later.
I find the voice of modern Lakotas missing on this website.
Some are writing, but not so many.
I am keen to hear what modern Lakotas say.
You are right about that people have to be aware of misleading information. I have fallen into that "trap" myself.
It is important to hear the voice of the modern Lakotas who either confirm, deny or challenge older written material or bring forth new information.

Hreinn