Post by jinlian on Oct 15, 2009 11:08:37 GMT -5
@grahame: I don't recall any element which could help to establish if Lone Man (aka Red Cloud) was or not the leader of the Lakota group involved in the Crow Butte fight. Maybe Kingsley can help on this?
Thanks for the information on the scout reports at Fort Laramie, Kingsley. If Big Mouth - and Blue Horse - were in fact officially enlisted as scouts around 1865-66, we could infer that the Army had concluded that, even if there were doubts about their reliability, the Loafers' role as mediators was somehow essential. Unfortunately, I've no clue about the exact enrollement - the only evidence was a much later statement of Blue Horse who claimed to have been "one of the first Sioux scouts enrolled by the Army". Charles Eastman (From the Deep Woods to Civilization ) reported to have seen most of the papers given to Blue Horse as an evidence of this friendship to the whites and that the earliest ones were signed by General Harney in 1854.
About the Wagluhe band's split in the late 1870-80s: besides the well-known interview in which Billy Garnett spoke about the raising of three different Loafer groups - the Blue Horse one, the American Horse one and the Three Bears one (even if, in another thread, it was discussed the possibility of this being not a "proper" Loafer band, but a group whose members'only common characteristic was having been army scouts in the 1876 Sioux War), it is quite singular that the most prominent Wagluhe leader (with the exception of Three Bears who, if my memory is correct, died in 1880 or 1881) at one point in the middle 1880s left Pine Ridge and joined Buffalo Bill's Wild West. As a matter of fact, it seems that in 1886-87 Blue Horse, American Horse and Red Shirt were all on a tour with the WWS. Don't know if this can be interpreted as a consequence of the Red Cloud-McGillycuddy struggle in which both Blue Horse and American Horse failed to take a clear stance. Can we suppose that, during their leaders' absence, what was left of the Wagluhe band shifted to Red Cloud's leadership (McGillycuddy was quite critical of the mixed-blood group supporting RC and mixed blood families had one time being the core of the Loafer band).
Last thought: American Horse's band after 1877 is traditionally identified as Wagluhe. A source (Allen?) however has AH's band's name as "Iya Sica", "Bad Talkers", distinguishing it from the Wagluhe (led by Blue Horse). What did "Iye Sica" (talking in a "bad" i.e. strange or funny way, if my interpretation is correct) refer to? A peculiarity of these people, which identified them as not fully Oglalas (in Olson's Red Cloud it is said that the people who, along with American Horse and No Flesh signed the agreement for the Sioux lands in 1888 were "mostly mixed bloods and Cheyenne") - just a hypothesis.
Jin
p.s. I have changed the thread's name, since it's focusing more on the Loafer band rather than Thigh.
Thanks for the information on the scout reports at Fort Laramie, Kingsley. If Big Mouth - and Blue Horse - were in fact officially enlisted as scouts around 1865-66, we could infer that the Army had concluded that, even if there were doubts about their reliability, the Loafers' role as mediators was somehow essential. Unfortunately, I've no clue about the exact enrollement - the only evidence was a much later statement of Blue Horse who claimed to have been "one of the first Sioux scouts enrolled by the Army". Charles Eastman (From the Deep Woods to Civilization ) reported to have seen most of the papers given to Blue Horse as an evidence of this friendship to the whites and that the earliest ones were signed by General Harney in 1854.
About the Wagluhe band's split in the late 1870-80s: besides the well-known interview in which Billy Garnett spoke about the raising of three different Loafer groups - the Blue Horse one, the American Horse one and the Three Bears one (even if, in another thread, it was discussed the possibility of this being not a "proper" Loafer band, but a group whose members'only common characteristic was having been army scouts in the 1876 Sioux War), it is quite singular that the most prominent Wagluhe leader (with the exception of Three Bears who, if my memory is correct, died in 1880 or 1881) at one point in the middle 1880s left Pine Ridge and joined Buffalo Bill's Wild West. As a matter of fact, it seems that in 1886-87 Blue Horse, American Horse and Red Shirt were all on a tour with the WWS. Don't know if this can be interpreted as a consequence of the Red Cloud-McGillycuddy struggle in which both Blue Horse and American Horse failed to take a clear stance. Can we suppose that, during their leaders' absence, what was left of the Wagluhe band shifted to Red Cloud's leadership (McGillycuddy was quite critical of the mixed-blood group supporting RC and mixed blood families had one time being the core of the Loafer band).
Last thought: American Horse's band after 1877 is traditionally identified as Wagluhe. A source (Allen?) however has AH's band's name as "Iya Sica", "Bad Talkers", distinguishing it from the Wagluhe (led by Blue Horse). What did "Iye Sica" (talking in a "bad" i.e. strange or funny way, if my interpretation is correct) refer to? A peculiarity of these people, which identified them as not fully Oglalas (in Olson's Red Cloud it is said that the people who, along with American Horse and No Flesh signed the agreement for the Sioux lands in 1888 were "mostly mixed bloods and Cheyenne") - just a hypothesis.
Jin
p.s. I have changed the thread's name, since it's focusing more on the Loafer band rather than Thigh.