|
Post by Dietmar on Oct 1, 2009 14:39:57 GMT -5
Btw, isn´t Howling Wolf´s outfit impressing? Besides the wonderful shield... note the typical Cheyenne straight-up war bonnet, which is shown in many ledger drawings, but rarely in photographs.
|
|
|
Post by naiches on Oct 7, 2009 4:38:30 GMT -5
And another nice photo of Marion's prisoners
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Oct 7, 2009 11:44:20 GMT -5
Great picture Naiches, new for me!
As for the one posted earlier, Dietmar, don't you agree that the shield carried by Eagle's Head looks a lota like a Kiowa shield, rather than Cheyenne?
|
|
|
Post by Dietmar on Mar 27, 2010 18:36:56 GMT -5
When I searched for the Indian photographs of the Lawrence T. Jones collection I realized that we have to correct the ID´s of the photo below: The inscription on the back of the original stereograph says: L to R: Lone Wolf, Double Vision, White Horse, Woman's Heart, Mamante (Owl Prophet) - Kiowas Officer left is Capt. Richard H. Pratt Taken in 1875. ...then the identifications of some other photos must be changed as well: sitting in front, far left: Double Vision sitting next: Lone Wolf sitting far right: Woman´s Heart
|
|
|
Post by charlie on Mar 30, 2010 7:20:12 GMT -5
Dietmar: the man standing second left to right in your first image is MAMANTE, not Double Vision. In your second image, the man sitting far left with bow is MAMANTE, not Double Vision. Look with attention: MAMANTE and LONE WOLF were the two more important chiefs among the Kiowa prisioners, and they are always near as position. The man standing far right in the first photo is too young for to be Mamante...That inscription is wrong!
|
|
|
Post by Dietmar on Mar 30, 2010 10:35:32 GMT -5
Whew Charlie, not so fast please . I know we should always be careful with inscriptions on photographs or other identifications done by photographers… they could be easily wrong for several reasons. However, this is the best source for the IDs on that particular photograph I´ve seen so far. I´ve seen the other statement about Mamanti standing second on a website long ago, I can´t remember exactly which site, and it left out the ID of the Indian standing far right. So I don´t know if that really is more reliable than the one in the Jones collection. Do you have another source for your opinion? Please let us know. Best Dietmar
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 30, 2010 11:33:42 GMT -5
For what it is worth, Mamanti's daughter declared that her brother looked exactly like her father... So here is the portrait of the son for comparison:
|
|
|
Post by charlie on Mar 31, 2010 10:56:39 GMT -5
Unfortunately i have not sure sources, but i always have seen on the web that man labelled as MAMANTI (Owl Prophet). He died afterly those images were taken. In the colour's photo the man of Dietmar don't appears... I have no info about Double Vision. Was it an important chief? Mamanti and Lone Wolf belonged to the same band and were two equally important chiefs. In the photos, i suppose, they are always next. The son of Mamanti was called Rainy Mountain. Who more it's similar? Now, i am indeed confused!
|
|
agnes
New Member
Posts: 6
|
Post by agnes on May 12, 2010 7:01:01 GMT -5
Hello charlie!
There's very few info about Double Vision.
Mooney mentions the following in his book about the Calendar History of the Kiowa Indians, p.433: Double-vision - A Kiowa warrior and Florida prisoner in 1875 (Report 1875); not known by Indians under this name.
Another book, Battlefield and Classroom: Four Decades with the American Indian, 1867-1904, by Richard Henry Pratt tells something more: "41. Double Vision. So-gau-se. Petty chief. Age 62. Wt. 160 lbs. Ht. 5 ft. 8 in. Arrested at Cheyenne Agency, Indian Territory, October 3, 1874. Was in the party murdering Earnest Modest. Held the bridle of Romero's horse all the time the murder of Earnest Modest was being accomplished."
Apparently he returned to his home alive in 1878.
While the Kiowa chiefs were Lone Wolf, Woman's Heart, White Horse and Mamanti, Double Vision was a sub-chief only.
|
|
agnes
New Member
Posts: 6
|
Post by agnes on May 12, 2010 8:03:12 GMT -5
For charlie and Dietmar: I made a comparison portraits about the 5 Kiowa chief with a help of 2 photographs. The ID history of these chiefs are the following: 1. Petersen's book, p.8: "Captain Pratt, Lone Wolf, ?, White Horse, Woman's Heart, ?, George Fox (interpreter)" 2. Ron McCoy's article (the middle row of my montage): "Screaming on High (aka Mamanti), White Horse, Woman Heart, Lone Wolf" He left out Double Vision from his picture. In my montage the persons from the left are: Mamanti, White Horse, Woman's Dress, Lone Wolf, Double Vision. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by charlie on May 12, 2010 10:12:50 GMT -5
Many thanks, Agnes. Indeed a great work! So, it's right the identification of Dietmar: the man standing second in the b/w photo is Double Vision, not Mamanti!
|
|
agnes
New Member
Posts: 6
|
Post by agnes on Jun 13, 2010 13:21:30 GMT -5
Dear Charlie! I'm thankful too for I was able to helping a bit! Yes, the ID arrangement is correct! Best regards: Agnes
|
|
|
Post by grahamew on Jun 20, 2010 13:33:57 GMT -5
A variant on what I take to be one of the earliest photos of the prisoners: Front row, left to right: Little Chief, Shave Head, Nick, Buzzard, Koba, Tounkeuh, Ohettoint Second row, left to right: Captain Pratt, Tsadeltah, Matches, Buffalo Scout, Tsaitkopeta, Soaring Eagle, White Bear Third row, left to right: Bear’s Heart, Zonekeuh, Roman Nose, Squint Eyes, White Man Top row, left to right: Cohoe, Making Medicine, Zotom Shave Head Koba Ex-Marion prisoners at the Hampton Institute, 1878 Front Row, l-r: White Bear (Arapahoe), To-un-keah (Kiowa), Ohettoint (Kiowa), Little Chief (Cheyenne), Matches (Cheyenne) Back Row, l-r: Nick Pratt (Cheyenne), Bear’s Heart (Cheyenne), White Man (Cheyenne), Etadleuh (Kiowa), Koba (Kiowa), Tich-ke-matse (Squint Eyes, Cheyenne), Roman Nose (Kiowa), Tsadletah (Kiowa)
|
|
|
Post by Dietmar on Jun 21, 2010 13:13:30 GMT -5
Thanks Grahame,
the identifications in the above images should help us to discern some more men in the other posted photographs we have in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by grahamew on Jun 21, 2010 16:54:53 GMT -5
|
|