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Post by dT on Mar 2, 2012 15:53:36 GMT -5
Very interesting information.
I hadn't really stopped to put together the sequence of events. From what you are saying, the Sioux had their first contact with horses in 1735. 141 years later at the Little Big Horn, Major Reno would go on to say that "the Cheyenne and the Sioux" were the best light cavalry in the world." I don't think Reno was exaggerating ... I think he was making his judgment about their horsemanship.
So what we're saying here is that in 141 years the Sioux went from being a "people afraid of horses" to mounted warriors with exceptional skill.
That's quite remakable.
dT
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Post by miller7513 on Mar 2, 2012 18:18:37 GMT -5
dt INDIAN HISTORY 1650 - 1749 1730-When the Dakota first observed the horse they called it the 'sacred dog.' The Snake People in southern Saskatchewan are in possession of the horse that they called Misstutim meaning big dog. The Blackfoot are also in possession of the horse that they also call the big dog. 1730 The Lakota (Dakota Sioux) began migrating and arrived in the Black Hills of Dakota during this time driving out the aboriginal people LaDeane
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Post by Dietmar on Nov 11, 2012 5:46:11 GMT -5
Just because it´s Sunday ... here´s a wonderful scan of Young-Man-Afraid-of-His-Horses in 1877, provided by Kingsley and cropped from the Sioux delegation photo. There´s so much dignity in the picture, I love it. Thank you Kingsley.
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 11, 2012 6:31:40 GMT -5
Thanks for uploading the image, Dietmar, it looks fantastic. Bob Dylan has a great song, 'Dignity', with the line
"Dignity's never been photographed."
I love Bob too, but this photo' proves him wrong haha in this instance!
And to go on record about Young Man Afraid of His Horse, historical objectivity notwithstanding, I love the man and his memory. Wopila, tunkashila.
Kingsley
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Post by carlo on Feb 26, 2015 16:37:47 GMT -5
I must admit this may be a silly question, but as yet I haven't read any detailed info on this: I'd like to know how the Lakota themselves made the distinction between Young Man Afraid Of His Horses and Old Man Afraid Of His Horses. Both had the name Tashunka Kokipapi, better translated as They Fear His Horses (or a variation thereof), so I'm sure the Lakota must have wanted to make a distinction between the two men.
In English, the difference between father and son was of course solved by adding the prefix 'Young Man' or 'Old Man' in this case (and for other names it would typically be the suffixe Sr/Jr or I/II), but how was this done in Lakota? Did they include something similar to denote the father or son? Or could it be that Old Man Afraid changed his name upon handing down his name to his son, and was thereafter known by his new name? Lakota naming convention would indicate this makes sense, but then his new name would have been widely known and I can't remember having read about a second name for Old Man Afraid.
Btw, Old Man Afraid's father was also named Tashunka Kokipapi so the 'problem' was already there for two generations.
Any thoughts?
Carlo
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Post by kingsleybray on Feb 27, 2015 5:44:20 GMT -5
In the Amos Bad Heart Bull picture history there are a few depictions of the deeds of Young Man Afraid of His Horse. He is captioned as "Tasunke Kokipapi icinupa" - literally 'second man Afraid of His Horse'. In day-to-day contexts people would be referred to by their nicknames. Old Man Afraid was known as Kapozhe'la - 'light in weight', which is actually the name of his immediate extended family group. In other words, as if he was THE Kapozhe'la, the embodiment of the tiyospaye. By the way I have been told that unpublished winter counts establish that the family was identified with this tiyospaye going back to the late 16th century. The name, Kapozha without the diminutive suffix -la, is also the name of the Little Crow tiyospaye of Mdewakanton Dakota. These two tiyospaye were originally one group, living on Ble Wakan (Mille Lacs Lake, MN). Toward the end of the 1500s an early Man Afraid led his own group onto the prairie and joined the Tetons (Lakotas). His name is mentioned specifically in a winter count entry assigned to the calendar year 1601. I emphasise this is not one of my interpretations , I have been told this by an unimpeachable Oglala source! Going back to your point, carlo, Young Man Afraid's nickname was Crazy Woman (Witko-win), the result of some incident on Crazy Woman creek, WYO. So this was one way confusion was avoided. The other is that within a family group, people spoke TO each other using kinship terms rather than names.
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Post by carlo on Feb 27, 2015 15:11:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the detailed answer Kingsley, was unaware of their respective nicknames.
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Post by carlo on Feb 28, 2015 6:35:29 GMT -5
Also Kingsley, you made me curious about the incident on Crazy Woman Creek, do you have any details you could share?
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Post by chicheman on Feb 28, 2015 10:55:39 GMT -5
Kingsley,
thank you for those very interesting informations. Especially interesting to hear of the things you told as far back as the 16th Century. Always fascinating how far back oral traditions / winter counts can lead us. I wasn´t aware that there are still unpublished wintercounts among the people, though I assumed that might be the case. Fascinating to learn that Lakotas did record on wintercounts already as early as 1601 - and probably before. Guess this might cover the time when the Lakota were still Dakota and living back east in Minnesota area ? Maybe the keepers of those winter counts, the families will one time share with the outside world, that would be great to learn about what happend back in these early times. Thanks for sharing some very interesting history things with us, always appreciate what you share. And I´m curious also, like Carlo, about the incident on Crazy Woman involving Young Man Afraid.
chicheman
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Post by grigoryev on Mar 2, 2015 3:19:10 GMT -5
hello Kingsley I would like to clarify the following. How do you write: "Old Man Afraid was known as Kapozhe'la - 'light in weight', which is actually the name of his immediate extended family group. In other words, as if he was THE Kapozhe'la, the embodiment of the tiyospaye."
However, the distribution of the Oglala, you specify: Kapozhela, Light-weight: Black Elk / Crazy Horse family.
This indicates some connection between Crazy Horse and Man Affraid families?
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Post by kingsleybray on Mar 4, 2015 9:22:21 GMT -5
I have been learning new things as you know. One thing is that the Man Afraid tiyospaye dates back to the late 1500s. It was called Kapozhe'la. In the 1700s, the time when horses were being acquired by the Lakota, it got another name - Lightning Horse, after a vision one of the Man Afraids had. But it continued the same tiyospaye, had both names.
Then, in 1835, Old Man Afraid of His Horse was made a Shirt Wearer. At that time his tiyospaye was part of the larger Payabya band. He was invited to join the Hunkpatila band by the chief Yellow Eagle (a man he called his father - there was an old connection btw the two families) and council. This was part of a strategy by the Hunkpatila band to move into Crow territory west of the Black Hills. Man Afraid and Worm (Crazy Horse's father) were recognized as advisors (wakichunze)to Yellow Eagle on the band council, and they merged their tiyospayes. I don't know what the Black Elk-Worm tiyospaye was called before the merger. I asumed they were related in some way, but was told this was not so.
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Post by dT on Mar 4, 2015 13:16:11 GMT -5
can we go back to something VERY basic. I remain humble with this discussion.
Your very first post ...
YOUNG MAN WHOSE HORSES THEY FEAR
YOUNG MAN AFRAID OF HIS HORSES
Those two names (for the same person) give entirely different meanings. The first one - Young Man Whose Horses They Fear - makes a lot more sense, now that I see it.
If the first translation is in fact the correct wording, then I suggest that you revise all accounts in history books to fix this error. Of course, no-one can re-write old books. But at least from now on, all new posts and books can use the correct name. it would be a sign of respect.
Just my thoughts.
dT
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Post by Historian on Oct 16, 2015 8:09:30 GMT -5
can we go back to something VERY basic. I remain humble with this discussion. Your very first post ... YOUNG MAN WHOSE HORSES THEY FEAR YOUNG MAN AFRAID OF HIS HORSES Those two names (for the same person) give entirely different meanings. The first one - Young Man Whose Horses They Fear - makes a lot more sense, now that I see it. If the first translation is in fact the correct wording, then I suggest that you revise all accounts in history books to fix this error. Of course, no-one can re-write old books. But at least from now on, all new posts and books can use the correct name. it would be a sign of respect. Just my thoughts. dT According to my Oglala Lakota mom, Celeste (Clown Horse) Brings, the daughter of Benjamin Clown Horse & Julia (Dirt Kettle) Clown Horse, and a descendant of Old Man Afraid Of His Horses through Ben Clown Horse, the Lakota name Tȟašúŋke Kȟokípȟapi should be translated as Man Whose Horses They Fear. It was explained to me that "They" refers to enemy Tribes of the Oglala, and that the implied meaning of the name would have been, this man was such a successful warrior, his enemies not only feared him, but they even feared his horses. Because the father, Man Whose Horses They Fear (aka Man Afraid Of His Horses) gave his son his name, non-Native folks tried to distinguish the two by transcribing their names on documents as Man Afraid Of His Horses The Older (aka Old Man Afraid Of His Horses) and Man Afraid Of His Horses The Younger (aka Young Man Afraid Of His Horses). I hope this helps.
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Post by Dietmar on Oct 16, 2015 8:22:26 GMT -5
Good explanation, thanks!
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Post by grigoryev on May 11, 2017 16:32:25 GMT -5
A. Old Man Afraid of His Horses (b. 1802 - d. 1887) 1st Married: date unknown, name unknown (b. unknown – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: 1. Bull Bear {male} (b. unknown - d. unknown) 2. Red Star, aka Wicarpi Luta {male} (b. 1848 - d. unknown) Married: date unknown, Fannie ------ (b. 1866 – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: a) Raymond Red Star (b. 1887 – d. unknown) b) Calvin Red Star (b. 1892 – d. unknown) c) Dan Red Star (b. 1895 – d. unknown) d) Bettie Red Star (b. 1898 – d. unknown) 3. Black Mountain Sheep, aka Chinska, aka Spoon {male} (b. unknown - d. unknown) 4. Clown Horse, aka Tasunke Heyoka {male} (b. Feb. 1842 - d. unknown) 5. Young Man Afraid of His Horses, aka Tasunke Kokipapi (b. 1830 or 1835 - d. 1893 or 1900) Married: 1871 to Hay Leg (b. 1853 – d. unknown), daughter of Henry Chatillion, aka Yellow White Man, and Bear Robe {female}. Known children: a) Frank Young Man Afraid of His Horses (b. 1888/1890 – d. unknown) Married: 1904 to Lucy Red Cloud (b. ca 1888 – d. unknown), daughter of Jack Red Cloud and Good Cloud. Known children: unknown 6. Talks Asleep {male} (b. 1850 – d. unknown)
2nd Married: 1856 to Medicine Woman (b. 1830 – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: 1. Move {female} (b. 1856 - d. unknown) 2. White {female} (b. 1873 – d. unknown) 3. Used Up Arrows {male} (b. 1882 – d. unknown)
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