Red Wing (Ahpishshish)

[hunkpapa]

The man is variously shown as born in 1851 or 1858, was a scout at Fort Custer with Thomas LaForge where he was dubbed 'One Eye' or 'One Eyed Riley' by the troopers. Spoken of with respect by LaForge and Plenty-Coups, he appears in the Crow Censuses of 1885,1890, 1900 and 1910 but not of 1930.

Presumably he died between 1910 and 1930 but my enquiries to the Crow Reservation about this have not merited any replies. Does anyone either know when and where he died or where I could look to find that out? Anyone have additional information about Red Wing, such as who he might have married, children etc?

Many thanks.

hunkpapa

[jinlian]

Hi Hunkpapa,
I remember your inquiry about Red Wing on the other board - I'll try to check the other books on the Apsalooke I've purchased by then and see if I can get other info.
In the meanwhile, I've checked the Crow census fot 1885, 1900 and 1910 and here's what I've found about his family:

1885: widowed, was living with a 1 year old son named Shoots Pretty

1900: widowed, living with a relative named Coo Chief (age 29) and his wife Plenty Lodge Poles

1910: married to Strikes in Camp and living with a stepdaughter, Irene Redmane (age 15)

It would be interesting to know if this stepdaughter survived his adoptive father, if she married in the tribe and with whom.

Have you tried to contact the American Indian Tribal Histories Project's staff? They've quite a section for Crow oral history.
www.ywhc.org/aithp/index.php?topgroupid=&groupid=1

Another idea is to contact Mr. Barney Old Coyote - he's more a storyteller, but has contacts at the LBH college.
www.turtleislandstorytellers.net/tis_montana/transcript_b_old_coyote.htm

Or the Little Big Horn College itself:
lib.lbhc.cc.mt.us/

[jinlian]

I've always found the Curtis portrait of Red Wing fascinating, so I'm posting it again here:

[hunkpapa]

Mar 14, 2009 4:30:05 GMT -5 jinlian said:

Hi Hunkpapa,
I remember your inquiry about Red Wing on the other board - I'll try to check the other books on the Apsalooke I've purchased by then and see if I can get other info.

It would be interesting to know if this stepdaughter survived his adoptive father, if she married in the tribe and with whom.

Have you tried to contact the American Indian Tribal Histories Project's staff? They've quite a section for Crow oral history.
www.ywhc.org/aithp/index.php?topgroupid=&groupid=1

Another idea is to contact Mr. Barney Old Coyote - he's more a storyteller, but has contacts at the LBH college.
www.turtleislandstorytellers.net/tis_montana/transcript_b_old_coyote.htm

Or the Little Big Horn College itself:
lib.lbhc.cc.mt.us/

Jinlian you are a treasure,

Many thanks for your input and I will try the three contacts you have given me. I have written to the Crow Reservation more than once but I did not receive any reply at all.

Yes, the information from the various census returns is titillating but sparse. The child Shoots Pretty was a daughter I think but as she did not appear on the 1900 census I assume that she must have died in infancy prior to that date. Neither Strikes The Camp nor Irene Redmane appear on the 1930 census so I guess that the former may have died and the latter had probably married, but without her married name I have not been able to find out more.

As you know, I am pursuing this matter for a friend who believes that Red Wing is her great-grandfather. This friend's mother, now deceased, seems to have passed this belief to her offspring via a story which is, to say the least, tenuous.

It goes like this:

Red Wing married a Tuscarora woman whilst acting as an escort for that tribe when they migrated to Canada. Red Wing was later executed in 1908 at Huntsville Prison, Texas, for refusing to go to the Reservation. He and his Tuscarora wife had a daughter, Jenny Sky, who married a Russian/Pole. They had a daughter, Rhaune (or Hawk Woman) who, at 2 months old, on the death of her mother, was sent to live in England with her paternal grandmother who had migrated there.

As you can see, the framework is flimsy. That anyone would be executed for refusing to go to the Reservation is not credible and in any case I have proved that the man who was executed at Huntsville, in 1931 in fact, was one Edward Red Wing, born in Oklahoma, the son of a Mexican father and a 'Native American' mother, possibly, Comanche, Kiowa, Cherokee etc., but definitely not Crow.

The only Tuscarora migration I can trace was in 1784 when those loyal to Britain went with Joseph Brant to the Six Nations reserve in Canada, though the historian of that reserve is presently checking if there were any later migrations. Even if there were, it seems unlikely that they would need an escort, presumably military, which employed a Crow from Montana in an East Coast migration.

Added to the confusion is the question of what Reservation Jenny Sky was born on as she certainly does not appear on any of the Crow census returns. Given that Rhaune was born about 1920 that would make Jenny Sky say 20 to 30 when she gave birth, born somewhere between 1890 and 1900, so I doubt that she was originally Shoots Pretty. There is apparently a birth certificate for Rhaune (who did exist, as I have traced her via the Internet) and my friend is apparently going to find a copy for me, so maybe some light will be shed.

It is clear that Rhaune was not averse to some embellishment but as with all elaborations, there may well be some element of truth at its base. I am therefore determined to do whatever I can to establish a link between Red Wing and my friend Paddy as that has been at the core of her life and I think she would be devastated if that connection was disproved.

BTW I fully agree that your photograph of Red Wing is magnificent. He was a superb looking man, the epitome of a Plains Indian warrior.

Thanks again, I truly appreciate your help.

hunkpapa

[gorkinoff]

Hunkpapa, Hau Mikoda!..I saw your last post and thought of some things to tell you...as you probably already know tribal government isn't so great at 'getting back to you'...The BIA has to get back to you, but, you have to write 'under the freedom of information act on the top of your request...(maybe you already knew that)

Again you might not have any help from them either (especially if all this happened in Texas and Oklahoma-but its worth a try)...and secondly I downloaded a book recently about the Tuscarora and the Six Tribes...it might have something in it about the tribal history that might help...but it might not!...

I find it interesting that the oral tradition says that there was an execution in the family history, and the research backs it up (albeit a different date!)...all that tells me is that there is something to the oral tradition (which tends to be the case!)


YOU SAID:
I have proved that the man who was executed at Huntsville, in 1931 in fact, was one Edward Red Wing, born in Oklahoma, the son of a Mexican father and a 'Native American' mother, possibly, Comanche, Kiowa, Cherokee etc., but definitely not Crow

...The only Tuscarora migration I can trace was in 1784 when those loyal to Britain went with Joseph Brant to the Six Nations reserve in Canada, though the historian of that reserve is presently checking if there were any later migrations.

What information did you find and where?

I think I read that the Tuscarora broke up and there was a latter migration to Oklahoma (I could be wrong though)...(but I have to do some reading to find out more about it)...and when I find the book I will send you a copy...its in my files (as a .pdf) but I still have to put the titles on them so I have to go through all of my books to find the right one...

YOU SAID:

I am therefore determined to do whatever I can to establish a link between Red Wing and my friend Paddy as that has been at the core of her life and I think she would be devastated if that connection was disproved.

I think the story has a basis in fact if you have found out that some of it is true, but the details are fuzzy and you will have to find out the rest of the story...don't be surprised if it is not the Crow, but some other group...keep an open mind and use the documentation to guide you...don't have a goal (Crow) and use the research to back it up...seek the truth...

Many Tribes had the name of Crow attached to their tribe in some way or another---Akicita society, Sub-tribe, Band...etc...Other tribes were called the Crow Before The Crow of Montana...So use an open-ended interpretation...(Oops, I see That jinlian has found some info about the Crow connection)

Dakota Genealogy Researcher-
Jon Brings Three White Horses-Crow Creek, S.D.

[jinlian]

Gorkinoff's statement about the "Crow tribe" mentioned in the oral account of Hunkpapa's friend being possibly a tribe (or even a band) other than the Apsalooke is in fact a strong possibility. Translation is a tricky business - I know, because I make a living of it - and sometimes lots of things end up lost in the process. So, it is possible that the family oral history is indeed right in all the info about Red Wing and his family, but it could also that this particular Red Wing belonged to another tribal group, called with a name that may be translated as "Crow" (Black Bird? Raven? just possibilities).

Hunkpapa, I forgot to add another two research-paths: one is contacting Dr. Joseph Medicine Crow, the Apsalooke's most famous tribal historian. He's 95 and is probably the last living person to have known Thomas LaForge. In one of his books he said LaForge "used to tell a number of tales about his Crow life" - he might have mentioned other details about his friend Red Wing. His telephone contact (and those of other Apsalooke members of the LBH college) is here:

lib.lbhc.cc.mt.us/history/lessonplans/speakers.php

Another possibility is trying to dig out the files documenting the career of Red Wing as a scout (enrollment, pension - in documents as the latter usually both children and wives are listed).

Best to you and your friend,
J.

[hunkpapa]

Mar 15, 2009 1:19:42 GMT -5 gorkinoff said:

(1) Hunkpapa, Hau Mikoda!..I saw your last post and thought of some things to tell you...as you probably already know tribal government isn't so great at 'getting back to you'...The BIA has to get back to you, but, you have to write 'under the freedom of information act on the top of your request...(maybe you already knew that)

(2) Again you might not have any help from them either (especially if all this happened in Texas and Oklahoma-but its worth a try)...and secondly I downloaded a book recently about the Tuscarora and the Six Tribes...it might have something in it about the tribal history that might help...but it might not!...

(3) I find it interesting that the oral tradition says that there was an execution in the family history, and the research backs it up (albeit a different date!)...all that tells me is that there is something to the oral tradition (which tends to be the case!)


(4) YOU SAID:
I have proved that the man who was executed at Huntsville, in 1931 in fact, was one Edward Red Wing, born in Oklahoma, the son of a Mexican father and a 'Native American' mother, possibly, Comanche, Kiowa, Cherokee etc., but definitely not Crow

...The only Tuscarora migration I can trace was in 1784 when those loyal to Britain went with Joseph Brant to the Six Nations reserve in Canada, though the historian of that reserve is presently checking if there were any later migrations.

What information did you find and where?

I think I read that the Tuscarora broke up and there was a latter migration to Oklahoma (I could be wrong though)...(but I have to do some reading to find out more about it)...and when I find the book I will send you a copy...its in my files (as a .pdf) but I still have to put the titles on them so I have to go through all of my books to find the right one...

(5) YOU SAID:

I am therefore determined to do whatever I can to establish a link between Red Wing and my friend Paddy as that has been at the core of her life and I think she would be devastated if that connection was disproved.

I think the story has a basis in fact if you have found out that some of it is true, but the details are fuzzy and you will have to find out the rest of the story...don't be surprised if it is not the Crow, but some other group...keep an open mind and use the documentation to guide you...don't have a goal (Crow) and use the research to back it up...seek the truth...

Many Tribes had the name of Crow attached to their tribe in some way or another---Akicita society, Sub-tribe, Band...etc...Other tribes were called the Crow Before The Crow of Montana...So use an open-ended interpretation...(Oops, I see That jinlian has found some info about the Crow connection)

Dakota Genealogy Researcher-
Jon Brings Three White Horses-Crow Creek, S.D.

Hau Gorkinoff, I really appreciate your generous contribution to my enquiry. I have numbered the points you raise to make answering them more orderly.

(1) Thanks for the BIA tip. I will try them but is the Freedom of Information Act applicable to non-residents of the U.S.A.?

(2) The focus of my friends ancestry connection is the Red Wing who is shown in the photograph posted by Jinlian. The Texas/Oklahoma Edward Red Wing, who was 39 when executed, was not old enough to be her great-grandfather as she is 67 herself. I think that was a false trail because of the similar name. Indeed, it is not clear whether that false trail was raised by the mother Rhaune, or by one of my friend's siblings picking up some reference to the execution. It will be delightful if your book on the Tuscarora contains something helpful as I have not yet heard from the Reserve historian.

(3) As I said above, it is unclear where the execution information originated with Rhaune. It seems to have been used as part of the talk my friend gives to various groups about her ancestry and the Plains Indian culture to conveniently illustrate how 'heroic' her great-grandfather was. Both my friend and her sister now agree that Edward Red Wing was no relation.

(4) My information on the Tuscarora came from more than one source. Firstly from "A Native American Encyclopedia" by Pritzker, then "The New World Encyclopedia" and the J.W. Jakes book "Mohawk: The Life of Joseph Brant". It would be intriguing if part of the Tuscarora tribe did remove to Oklahoma, especially if the time line did fit and they arrived via a route through Montana. I hope that tracing that information is not too time consuming for you but it would be of great help.

(5) You are quite right about the need to keep an open mind. I am constantly aware that my friend may end up disappointed but I did warn her about that possibility at the beginning of this saga. I have already caused her some upset by pointing out certain inaccuracies in her talk, which she had copied to me, but I can only commend her spirit as she seems to take setbacks well. That the search may lead somewhere other than the Crow is a distinct possibility. Rhaune was apparently also known as 'Hawk Woman' but that name was translated (badly) into Lakota and all her children and grandchildren have been given names in addition to their English birth names, each of which has been translated (again badly) into Lakota. For example, Hawk Woman is shown in my friend's talk as 'Wanbli Winan' but that is a literal translation of 'Eagle Woman' I believe. She should, I think, be 'Cetanwi' or whatever the correct Lakota description is for 'Hawk Woman'.

So I am taking this search one step at a time, without expecting any particular outcome. What I should have said was that I am determined to make the link to Red Wing 'if that is possible', but I am under no illusions that it is a foregone conclusion.

It is people like you and Jinlian who will help to keep me honest and I am extremely grateful to you both.

hunkpapa

[hunkpapa]

Mar 15, 2009 3:27:05 GMT -5 jinlian said:

Gorkinoff's statement about the "Crow tribe" mentioned in the oral account of Hunkpapa's friend being possibly a tribe (or even a band) other than the Apsalooke is in fact a strong possibility. Translation is a tricky business - I know, because I make a living of it - and sometimes lots of things end up lost in the process. So, it is possible that the family oral history is indeed right in all the info about Red Wing and his family, but it could also that this particular Red Wing belonged to another tribal group, called with a name that may be translated as "Crow" (Black Bird? Raven? just possibilities).

Hunkpapa, I forgot to add another two research-paths: one is contacting Dr. Joseph Medicine Crow, the Apsalooke's most famous tribal historian. He's 95 and is probably the last living person to have known Thomas LaForge. In one of his books he said LaForge "used to tell a number of tales about his Crow life" - he might have mentioned other details about his friend Red Wing. His telephone contact (and those of other Apsalooke members of the LBH college) is here:

lib.lbhc.cc.mt.us/history/lessonplans/speakers.php

Another possibility is trying to dig out the files documenting the career of Red Wing as a scout (enrollment, pension - in documents as the latter usually both children and wives are listed).

Best to you and your friend,
J.

Jinlian thanks for the two additional contact sources. I will follow them up.

You will see in my reply to Gorkinoff that I have taken on board the caveats you have both put forward. That the ancestor could be a different Red Wing is entirely feasible and apparently has been suggested to my friend before, but was discounted. I get the distinct feeling that the reputation of the Crow, Red Wing, as a warrior and scout, is very attractive to the family.

Incidentally, I followed up Irene Redmane in the 1930 Crow census, by simply entering 'Irene'. There were about six 'Irenes' but only one who could fit the known facts.

She was 34 in 1930 which fits with her being 15 in 1910. Her name was Irene Notafraid living with Carson Yellowtail in 1930 and with 4 children ranging from 15 to 5. It is possible that she had been previously married to one of the numerous 'Notafraid' males also listed in the 1930 census. Not proof positive, but possible just the same.

Thanks again.

hunkpapa

[hunkpapa]

Gorkinoff my friend,

I have found that in 1881, a group of Cayugas, with some Tuscaroras left the Six Nations Reserve in Canada to join part of the Seneca Tribe on their reservation in north east Oklahoma (then the Indian Territory).

That makes a meeting between Red Wing (whichever one that may be) and a Tuscarora woman more feasible as the Canadian group crossed into the U.S.A. on their way to join the Seneca rather than a Crow from Montana escorting an Eastern Indian group en route to the Six Nations Reserve.

I'll continue to dig and I'll let you know if anything transpires.

hunkpapa

[hunkpapa]

I have received some information from the Six Nations Reserve that could potentially lead to the answers. Apparently there are families still living there who have the names of 'Sky' and 'Red Wing' so it is possible that some members of both families crossed into the U.S. in 1881 to join the Seneca in Indian Territory. My friend could well be looking at not only a Tuscarora great grandmother but also a Tuscarora great grandfather!

I'll keep you posted.

hunkpapa

[jinlian]

I doubt now about the Red Wing connection hunkpapa told us about, but here's a portrait of Red Wing (who seems to have been known also as "Black Man") by J.H. Sharp. Handsome man, indeed.