|
Post by ouroboros on Aug 9, 2019 5:23:33 GMT -5
You are welcome chicheman. I found an interesting info in Sweeney's biography of Cochise: "Although he (i.e. Cochise) seems to have had little if any contact with the Mescalero Apaches east of the Rio Grande, many of the smaller bands west of the the river provided plenty of recruits for his enterprises." Link: books.google.pl/books?id=1XgKvUEYa0gC&pg=PT227&dq=Cochise&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj08I-nxfXjAhXr_CoKHbrdBnYQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Mescalero&f=false I wonder whether this has something to do with the old power division in the Apacheria between Mangas Coloradas and Gomez. According to one of the sources, Mangas was the most important chief of Nde west of Rio Grande del Norte, Gomez the most important headman of Nde east of this river.
|
|
|
Post by chicheman on Aug 11, 2019 6:50:27 GMT -5
again much interesting source you sent ouroboros, have to look out for those books you mentioned. Sounds reasonable about the power devision that you do suggest, yes. Well, I have to say that I do not know much about Gomez, I´ll have to do some research on him as well.
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Aug 13, 2019 3:22:36 GMT -5
again much interesting source you sent ouroboros, have to look out for those books you mentioned. Sounds reasonable about the power devision that you do suggest, yes. Well, I have to say that I do not know much about Gomez, I´ll have to do some research on him as well. Thank you very much chicheman for your kind words. I have looked for infos on relations between Cochise and the Mescaleros. There were talks between Cochise and US Lieutenant Argalus G. Hennisee in 1870 and there was an interesting dialogue: Hennisee asked Cochise: If he was head chief of all the Apaches. If, so, would he send out [runners] and get them all in? Cochise replied: Loco and Victorio are head chiefs here. I am Captain only in my own country. I will send out for my people to keep the roads clear. The Mescaleros are with the Comanches a long way off and cannot send word because there are 5 days [of] travel without water Quoted after Sweeney, Cochise: Firsthand Accounts of the Chiricahua Apache Chief, 2014, p. 141. Link: books.google.pl/books?id=DaWVAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT256&dq=Sweeney+Cochise&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9munasf_jAhVSlIsKHYPcBxoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=Mescaleros&f=falseSo it seems, that he really had little contact with the Mescaleros east of Rio Grande del Norte. As for chief Juan Gómez, I will put some fine infos in the future. He is a fascinating Nde nantan and one of the most powerful Apache chiefs in the I half of the XIX century.
|
|
|
Post by chicheman on Aug 15, 2019 8:35:46 GMT -5
Great share ouroboros, thanks, these are interesting details again. I definitively have to read more and especially those sources you did suggest. I´m also looking forward as of informations on Juan Gòmez you will put together, already most interesting sounding to me. Greetings from Germany
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Aug 20, 2019 7:47:22 GMT -5
You are welcome chicheman. The Mescaleros had also very friendly relations with the Jicarillas, whom they called Chiyahene (living close to house people). As for the Jicarillas they - as it seems - did not interact with the Chiricahuas. As for the Jicarilla-Mescalero relations, they were both allies of the non-apachean Utes. In 1858 the Mescaleros and Utes fought the Kiowas and Cheyennes (source: Turmoil in New Mexico, 1846-1868, p. 92. Link: books.google.pl/books?id=UZrdSINpaZoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Turmoil+in+New+Mexico&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiiiJm7vJHkAhXJb5oKHUXtAD4Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Kiowas&f=false ) Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2905/relations-nde-groups?page=2#ixzz5x948r8P2
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Mar 7, 2020 10:22:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Jun 11, 2020 1:13:30 GMT -5
Interesting information found in Mexican sources. It relates on a possible warfare between Mescaleros and Chiricahuas.
In 1850 60 Mescalero warriors with their families (a population of ca. 260 people) - who were constantly fighting against the Comanches - asked the Mexican authorities for peace. They offered to make war on the Apaches Carrizaleños.
The Apaches Carrizaleños were a gruoup of the Nednhi/Ndendahe. The identity of the Mescalero group is a mystery. Perhaps they were the Tsebekinéndé, a southern Mescalero band (which was often called Aguas Nuevas by the Spanish), who shared overlapping territory in the surroundings of Casas Grandes and Aguas Nuevas with the Carrizaleños.
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Jul 23, 2020 5:47:51 GMT -5
One of the interesting issues is the relation between White Mountain Apaches and their western neighbours the Tonto Apaches. White Mountain Apaches called them "dilje-e", because of their distinctive speech. Both groups had limited contact and occasional conflict.
The most interesting are the relations between White Mountains and the Mescaleros. There was in generall little contact between them, but there were occasional conflicts between war-parties in the territory of Mexico. In th 1840s The Mescalero Apaches attacked a party od White Mountains led by the famous nantan Hashkeedasillaa, shooting him in the shoulder.
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Oct 14, 2020 3:08:38 GMT -5
There is an excellent characterisation of the relations between the Mescaleros and other Nde groups in: Harry W.Basehart, Mescalero Apache subsistence patterns and socio-political organization, pp. 167-8:
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Jan 9, 2021 4:40:15 GMT -5
I have found an intersting info on Lipan autoidentification (Randolph Keim, Sheridan's troopers..., p. 189): "They (i.e. the Lipans) say of themselves that they are not Apaches, that the Apaches live away to the west". Of course, the very name "Apache" was not used by the Nde groups, as it is an foreign umbrella-term used to classify and identify the Athapascan groups of the south-west. Although, I wonder if this Lipan statement about their separetness and difference form the Apaches who lived farther west. You can download the book legally here: books.google.pl/books?id=LbXVAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=html_text&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=2
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Apr 13, 2021 1:16:55 GMT -5
An interesting point on the classification of the four Bands under the umbrella-term Chiricahua is made by Juh's son - Asa Daklugie, quoted from: Indeh: An Apache Odyssey, p. 22:
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Apr 15, 2021 14:55:29 GMT -5
But the Nednhi had a different opinion on their behaviour:
Quoted from: Eve Ball, Indeh, p. 4.
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Apr 16, 2021 1:27:16 GMT -5
Big Mouth a Mescalero Apache who served as a scout against Victorio and Geronimo commented on the greed and cruelty of the "White Eyes" and mentioned the relation with the Lipan and the Chihenne (Warm Springs)
Quoted from Eve Ball, Indeh, p. 200.
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Apr 17, 2021 5:40:21 GMT -5
The relations between the Western Apache and the Chiricahua were exhaustive described by Grenville Goodwin, The Social Organization of the Western Apache, Tucson 1969, pp. 83-85:
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on May 14, 2021 23:14:17 GMT -5
The relations between the Western Apache and the Mescaleros are described in Grenville Goodwin, The Social Organization of the Western Apache, Tucson 1969, pp. 85-86:
What is interesting that according to Anna Price the Eastern Chiricahua - probably it means the Chihenne - were enemies of the Mescalero.
|
|