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Post by jinlian on Aug 30, 2008 4:41:26 GMT -5
According to Richard Hardoff ( Indian Views of the Custer Fight) Crow scout Half Yellow Face was known to the Arikara scouts as "Big Belly". Now, at Cowan's, I've found this picture marked as "Crow Scouts: Snake and Big Belly". Could it be that this is the only portrait of the Custer scout? In the earliest Crow Agency census (1885), there's neither Half Yellow Face nor Big Belly, but his wife, Can't Get Up, is listed as head of the household (as mother of 3 children aged 16, 20 and 30).
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Post by grahamew on Aug 30, 2008 11:33:57 GMT -5
I downloaded the same image from another site. The 'photographer' is known to have sold the works of others, particularly Barry, under his imprint. Maybe they're labelled Sioux because he thought they'd sell more; maybe he didn't know any better... Here's a Barry (?) photo of Crow scouts. Difficult to make out, but is that Big Belly at front right, wearing the uniform?
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Post by jinlian on Aug 30, 2008 11:53:30 GMT -5
I, too, think this is a Barry photo.
No idea about how and by whom the second photo was realized; I've found it on a website where the scout wearing the uniform was identified as "Curley" (!!). According to medicine women Pretty Shield (niece of Half Yellow Face), it was Half Yellow Face/Big Belly to "carry the pipe" (lead) the Crow scouts in the Custer fight. This means he was a man of authority, maybe older than the others. In the1885 census records, his wife is said to be about 50 and he would have been at least of the same age, which means he was about 40 in 1876. Now, the man in the Barry (?)photo looks in his late 30s - early 40s and then of the right age. About the Indian labeled as "Snake": I've been wondering if he may be identified with Bull Snake (scout with Crook at the Rosebud); at the moment, I'm doublechecking the other photos I've of him. Will let you know later.
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Post by Jari on Aug 30, 2008 12:32:51 GMT -5
Hello, In Greasy Grass Magazine Vol. 14, May 1998, there is an article by Mike Cowdrey. There is also the same photo, Cowdrey says it's by Barry. He says that a man standing in the photo might be Half-Yellow-Face, and a young man on the right is Curley, a man on the left is officially unidentified, the others from left to right there are Hairy Moccasins, Bull Snake and White Swan. Regards Jari from Finland I downloaded the same image from another site. The 'photographer' is known to have sold the works of others, particularly Barry, under his imprint. Maybe they're labelled Sioux because he thought they'd sell more; maybe he didn't know any better... Here's a Barry (?) photo of Crow scouts. Difficult to make out, but is that Big Belly at front right, wearing the uniform?
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Post by jinlian on Aug 30, 2008 13:22:01 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the information, Jari. Speaking of Barry, the backdrop of the first picture (the two scouts) is very similar to that of the famous series of portraits of Curley.
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Post by jinlian on Aug 30, 2008 17:14:30 GMT -5
Re: the other man in the picture, I've made a comparison with two well-known pictures of the Crow scout Bull Snake, the first one by Throssel (1908 or so) and the second shot during the 1913 Wanamaker expedition. There's some resemblance, but the overall impression is that of two different men. I think however that, given also the second Barry photo posted by Grahame, there's a strong possibility of "Big Belly" being in fact Half Yellow Face.
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Post by grahamew on Aug 31, 2008 4:13:08 GMT -5
Is this also Big Belly/Half Yellow Face? Here, for comparison, is another Barry photo (again, copied by Herrin) featuring Snake:
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Post by jinlian on Aug 31, 2008 5:59:53 GMT -5
Hi Grahame, about the first picture: 95% I'd say yes, that's Big Belly/Half Yellow Face, even if that scowl somehow alters his facial features... about the other Indian: yes, that's definitely the Crow Spotted Horse (b. about 1848 d.1902), a brother-in-law and close comrade to Chief Plenty Coups. Here's Spotted Horse in another photo by Barry:
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Post by grahamew on Aug 31, 2008 11:46:00 GMT -5
That may be Big Belly at the front of the Barry photo, but that's surely not Curley at he far right - looks far too young.
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Post by jinlian on Sept 1, 2008 11:08:29 GMT -5
From the same series: this man, on the other hand, looks more like Bull Snake.
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Post by grahamew on Sept 1, 2008 11:30:57 GMT -5
Bull Snake and Two Whistles, post-1887:
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Post by Dietmar on Sept 1, 2008 15:09:54 GMT -5
I don´t know how reliable the information is... but I just read at some websites that Half Yellow Face died at Fort Custer in 1879.
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Post by jinlian on Sept 1, 2008 16:43:27 GMT -5
Definitely died before 1885 - I haven't the exact date, not yet at least. :-)
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Post by grahamew on Sept 1, 2008 17:06:44 GMT -5
Interesting, because I would've imagined the photo of the standing Half Yellow Face (if it is him) and the other mounted Crows to be later than 79.
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Post by jinlian on Sept 2, 2008 0:25:15 GMT -5
Anyone has the exact date of the Curley series?
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