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Post by lgarcia on Jun 16, 2014 16:29:39 GMT -5
Pete (dT) This should be posted in the 3 Tribes area.
The leader of the Hidatsa / Crow Circa 1550 had a dream and was told to move to the Missouri River. The Hidatsa say they were born and lived below the waters of the lake (Spirit /devils lake), half the tribe still lives under the water. A pregnant woman climbed the vine leading to the surface of the water, her weight broke the vine leaving the tribe half above and have below the water. I don't have this stuff in front of me to give you the leader's name. Perhaps someone can post more specific information. After the Hidatsa/Crow, the Blackfoot, Atsina, Cheyenne, among others passed through Spirit Lake (Miniwakan)on their way west. The Lakota were no where near this area until the Hunkpapa, Lakota began harassing the northern forts late 1860's. Toksta, Louie
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His War
Jun 17, 2014 8:26:57 GMT -5
Post by dT on Jun 17, 2014 8:26:57 GMT -5
Louie - you're right that this should probably be copied somewhere else. So what I'm learning is that Spirit Lake was not the cause of the fighting between the Hidatsa and the Lakotas. The Crows (Hidatsa) had left Spirit Lake for a long time before the Lakotas arrived. In that case, do you know why the Crows and Lakotas became such fierce enemies for so many years? There were so many fights between them, and so many scalps taken.
thanks, Pete (dT)
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His War
Jun 17, 2014 9:38:48 GMT -5
Post by lgarcia on Jun 17, 2014 9:38:48 GMT -5
Pete (dT) The Dakota / Lakota considered any territory that contained buffalo (Pte) theirs. As the herds began to diminish the Lakota pushed other tribes aside and hunted the new territory. It was no different with the Crows. The Crow were in the way, but were not pushed aside so easily. By the late 1870's - 1883 the buffalo were gone and everyone was on a reservation somewhere. Later, Louie
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His War
Jun 17, 2014 14:29:50 GMT -5
Post by dT on Jun 17, 2014 14:29:50 GMT -5
Louie - thanks. The comments help. Your last reply raises the question in my mind about what "territory" meant to the tribes (such as the Crows and Lakotas). Was open range land with buffalo considered a "wide open" target where anyone could hunt ... provided they could defend themselves. Or were there some fixed boundaries and markers (.e.g. rivers, hills) which generally defined where the strongly-held terrority started. In other words, was some land seen as "definite land of the Crows" and "definite land of the Lakotas", while other areas were first-come-first served? I guess this gets down to the basic concept of how the tribes saw land, and who was able to use that land. thanks for any thoughts.
Pete (dT)
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His War
Jun 18, 2014 16:26:21 GMT -5
Post by lgarcia on Jun 18, 2014 16:26:21 GMT -5
Pete: I am not an expert on the subject of the Lakota. I think you need to do a lot of reading to catch up on general information. Read the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868, it defines who owned what at that time period. Yes, the territory of each tribe was defined by natural boundaries (rivers, creeks, hills). However some of the locations mentioned in the treaties were named according to Wasicun knowledge. The tribes each had their own names that they used to name a location. These dual names lead to confusion when the land was eventually divided up. Louie
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Post by ladonna on Jun 19, 2014 7:39:23 GMT -5
Louie - thanks. The comments help. Your last reply raises the question in my mind about what "territory" meant to the tribes (such as the Crows and Lakotas). Was open range land with buffalo considered a "wide open" target where anyone could hunt ... provided they could defend themselves. Or were there some fixed boundaries and markers (.e.g. rivers, hills) which generally defined where the strongly-held terrority started. In other words, was some land seen as "definite land of the Crows" and "definite land of the Lakotas", while other areas were first-come-first served? I guess this gets down to the basic concept of how the tribes saw land, and who was able to use that land. thanks for any thoughts. Pete (dT) Yes we have define territories but we also shared territory with other tribes, The problem we had with the Crow is they tried to claim our territory which ended up in 200 years of war that continues today on a joking bases. We don't have territories like white people define. So our territory we had Mandan, Arikara, Hidesta, Crow, Cheyenne and many other who camp hunted or traveled though the land When another tribe came in we had a feed, shared song, dance trade and made agreements.
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His War
Jun 19, 2014 11:53:46 GMT -5
Post by dT on Jun 19, 2014 11:53:46 GMT -5
thank you Ladonna. it has seemed that there was a special rivalry and war between the Lakotas and the Crows ... and also between the Lakotas and the Arikara. And since the Nez Perce were friends of the Crows, then the Lakotas also fought them as well. And as you say - it went on for a long, long time.
Pete (dT)
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Post by ladonna on Jun 20, 2014 7:25:51 GMT -5
Our fight with the Crow has been going on since the Crow went to Montana in 1450 according to the winter counts The Arikara moved in our territory in the 1600 and so it was peace and war the Arikara's brother tribe the Pawnee have been our enemy.The Hidesta and Crows are the same people, and the Pawnees and Arikarea are the same people
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His War
Jun 20, 2014 15:29:38 GMT -5
Post by dT on Jun 20, 2014 15:29:38 GMT -5
thank you Ladonna. I didnt realize that Pawnees and Arikara - were different names for the same people. That's useful to know.
Pete (dT)
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Post by nukemm33 on Dec 22, 2023 14:52:15 GMT -5
The Turning Bear band as listed in the Sitting Bull Surrender Census comprises all Sans Arcs returning from Canada in 1881. So people from many tiyoshpaye are represented in it. As Ephriam indicates he then seems to move from the Sans Arc to the Northern Oglala camp at Standing Rock. These people were then transferred to Pine Ridge in spring 1882 where they were enrolled. I have an 1882 Cheyenne River census which does not list His War/His Fight among the Sans Arcs transferred to that agency from Standing Rock. I had assumed that the Oglala His Battle was the man named by Wm Garnett in his interview with Judge Ricker - Keeps the Battle, a brother of Woman Dress and a sergeant in the Indian scouts enrolled by Gen. Crook at Red Cloud Agency in fall 1876. Note however that Garnett, interviewed in Jan. 1907 (seven months before the Meany interview with His War), remarks that Keeps the Battle was then already dead. So I guess it's impossible. His War talks a lot about Red Cloud and his father in this interview, which again made me think there must be a family connection - but he also mentions Crow Feather, a great Sans Arc leader, which perhaps hints at his very wide family contacts. Red Cloud said he himself was a 'nephew' of old chief Crow Feather, and he made the point that the Oglalas were originally (a long-long time ago!) "a branch of the [No] Bow Sioux", i.e. the Sans Arcs. His Fight/His Battle (Okiciza Tawa) married my great, great, great aunt Sna Win (Rattles/Rattling) and had two children: Ruth/Red Day and War Girl. My notes state that he had died by 1899. I'm adding this comment just to corroborate that this person must have been someone with a similar name.
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