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Post by mystic3335 on Apr 14, 2014 17:34:05 GMT -5
Hello, I know this is a very subjective topic and one that I would love to hear your views on. All of the Apache scouts were the best at what they did. General Crook knew it would take Apache's to track Apache's. Later, after Crook resigned, General Miles thought he could find and stop Geronimo and the "hostile " Apache's with just the army. He soon found he needed the scouts. All the scouts performed gallantry and many would receive the MOH for their gallant efforts during the winter campaign of 1872-1873 under Crook. This thread is too see if one particular scout stands out from the rest for all of you? Could it be MOH recipient Alchesay, who lead many scouts under him while on campaign with Crook and tried to convince Geronimo to surrender? Could it be Peaches( Tsoe ) who after being an unwilling member of Chato's band and suffering much personal heartache, would in turn lead Crook to Geronimo and Chato? Could it be Chato himself who would become a scout for Crook and lead him to his old friend Geronimo. Crook himself said the tracking of Chato and his scouts was a big reason for finding Geronimo and Chato would even be asked to Washington for his valor. Could it be Dutchy the Yellow Coyote who was a great tracker working with Crook and Alchesay and the avenger of Officer Crawford? Could it be the Apache Kid, before he became a renegade? Could it be MOH recipient Rowdy? Could it be Mickey Free, who may or may not of had Apache blood flowing through his veins, but was raised, after being kidnapped, by the Apache, and may just have been the best scout/tracker of all? Or could it be one of the many great and honorable Apache scouts I haven't mentioned? Would love to hear what all of you might think. Thank You.
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Post by dT on Apr 14, 2014 21:56:47 GMT -5
probably would be a difficult question to answer truthfully.
you quoted the Army point of view. yes, the US ARmy had used the "divide and conquer" system against Native Americans for years and years. the way it played out with Apaches - was just the final ending. But for example, go back and look at Custer when he was marching on the Little Bighorn. Custer had scouts from the Arikara and Crow tribes, and possibly others. Only three scouts are believed to have been killed ... the others left the battle scene before the engagement. But the bottom line is that the US Army was skilled at playing one side against the other, and it's a strategy that is still used overseas to this day.
White Mountain scouts were used against Geronimo and the "hostiles" because they were the only ones who tracking skills were good enough to avoid being fooled by the many tricks of the experienced Chiricahua's. Straight away that tells you that Geronimo was extremely good at what he did ... tracking and evasion. In addition, as you have noted Chato had an intimate knowledge of the Apache areas in the Sierra Madre - which surprised and disrupted the plans of Geronmimo and his company. I wouldn't doubt that Chato was excellent "on the ground" as a tracker. it would be very difficult to know who was best though. You would literally need the advice of people back in those days. you might determine the answer by looking at who Al Sieber used as the Chief of his Scouts - Al Sieber was nobody's fool. And while I'm not personally happy with what he was doing, he did certainly know how to organize a successful scouting party.
My vote actually goes to Geronimo himself ... he had been doing this stuff since he was a kid. He was unbelievably good on the trail, and probably never would have been brought in - if he had stayed off the tiswin and the mescal.
dT
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Post by mystic3335 on Apr 15, 2014 4:03:02 GMT -5
Hi dT, Great thread! Great point that Geronimo himself may have been the best( as stated in earlier thread, this is very subjective and more of a thread to hear what everyone thinks, as all the Apache trackers were great at what they did) Once going into the Sierra Madre I do not think the army could have come close to finding Geronimo without the Apache trackers. As you noted with Chato, who had an intimate knowledge of how Geronimo worked in the Mts and Peaches was the same way, having been in Chato's party.
I think special notice goes to Alchesay, Dutchy, and Micky Free, who having never been with Geronimo's group and then having left, were still able to track him. If even a small amount of Micky Free's tracking history is accurate, he is near the top of the list. Did he find the Apache Kid after tracking him for over three months?
The sad fact is the army used these honorable warriors for their benefit and in turn exiled them,most,( as a noted exception is Alchesay ), with the "hostile" Apache's they helped find. Very sad and unfortunate part of American history. Even after all that, the scout Peaches who was exiled for a time would still travel with Pershing into Mexico as a scout to help him track Pancho.
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Post by dT on Apr 15, 2014 8:47:47 GMT -5
mystic ... there was a LOT of very crafty stuff going on out there. This was a war, and wars always involve the greatest in trickery. Geronimo had learned tracking since he was a boy, and it became very important after he was a teenager and went on his first big raids down into Mexico. Over time many rumors developed about Geronimo. I believe most of the rumors are wrong ... in the sense that they don't explain what was really happening. For example, some people believe that since Geronimo was a medicine man, he was also a "shape shifter" and could change into different animals. I don't think so. But Goyakhla (Geronimo) was so good at tracking, that he could cut a path around in a circle, cross over his old tracks, and hide the new track to make it look like animal tracks. This gave the impression to people who were following him that he had changed from a man into an animal. He had many tricks like this.
It would be nice to know more about the White Mountain trackers and which ones were really good. I've got the book about General Crook, but have not read through it yet. Probably some things in there would help to answer your question. I'm not sure what it was about the White Mountain Nde people that encouraged them to keep their tracking skills so darn good ... but there is no doubt they were extraordinarily good at it.
dT
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Post by mystic3335 on Apr 15, 2014 10:14:15 GMT -5
Hi dT, Again, a great thread with really great information! Thank You. Geronimo was a great great tracker learning from youth as you had mentioned. If the army, Crook particularly, had not used Apache scouts( White Mountain and Alchesay at the forefront ), I don't think there ever would have been a chance to track him once he entered the Sierra Madre Mts.
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Post by dT on Apr 15, 2014 15:07:19 GMT -5
if you want to know more about Chato - talk to Kayitah on this forum. i think he has studied Chato extensively. i don't know the details of the relationship between Chato and Geronimo. i am guessing there was a fall-out between them ... something personal. Chato clearly took the point of view that the best resolution was to bring Geronimo in. As for Geronimo, he had personal reasons to keep going out - some had to do with perceived injustices on the rez. But I think his main reason was a determination to try to continue the "old ways" ... probably in ways that few people understand even today. so a kind of rivalry developed between Geronimo and those dedicated to tracking him. as you correctly pointed out, it destroyed the "peace of mind" of the wild Chiricahua's when Gen Crook showed up in the middle of the Sierra Madre. at that point they realized that they had no refuge left where they could disappear and never be found. so they would be eternally fugitives and on-the-run ... which was a very hard existence and eventually wore them out mentally and physically.
dT
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Post by mystic3335 on Apr 15, 2014 16:51:45 GMT -5
Hi dT, Thank You again for a great thread and wonderful information. I always learn something. I have wrote to Kayitah before and he is always so helpful. I will write him about Chato, thank you. I know they had a following out and once Chato agreed to help Crook and become a scout it became very difficult for Geronimo. Chato knew him well and besides Mickey Free( which I'm not sure quite what the issue between Geronimo and him ), Chato was most likely the one tracker Geronimo did not want on his trail? It is interesting in the famous meeting with Crook two of the individuals that Geronimo particularly brought up( may of had something to do with things on the Rez?, were Chato and Mickey Free.
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Post by mystic3335 on Apr 15, 2014 16:51:40 GMT -5
Hi dT, Thank You again for a great thread and wonderful information. I always learn something. I have wrote to Kayitah before and he is always so helpful. I will write him about Chato, thank you. I know they had a following out and once Chato agreed to help Crook and become a scout it became very difficult for Geronimo. Chato knew him well and besides Mickey Free( which I'm not sure quite what the issue between Geronimo and him ), Chato was most likely the one tracker Geronimo did not want on his trail? It is interesting in the famous meeting with Crook two of the individuals that Geronimo particularly brought up( may of had something to do with things on the Rez?, were Chato and Mickey Free.
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Post by dT on Apr 15, 2014 19:18:16 GMT -5
I'm hoping that Kayitah may see this conversation ... and add some comments here directly. I'm sure he would have some excellent thoughts. thanks for all of your own input on this subject. it is a very interesting thread.
dT
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Post by dT on May 6, 2014 13:16:43 GMT -5
I was hoping that Kayitah might join in ... since he has studied Chatto extensively. Still, I will add one thought. I was reading some more from the book by Jason Betzinez about the last days of Geronimo. In those (true) stories, Jason talks about an event where a group of young warriors abandoned their commitment to the Apache tribe. A small group of warriors was moving ahead of the main Apache band (with women and children). The band was being pursued by the US Cavalry. There was also an ambush from Mexican troops ahead. The warriors ahead became aware of the Mexican troops. They should have sent someone back to warn the women and children of danger. But they did not!! Jason Betzinenz mentions this specifically - in terms of the feeling of shock and betrayal over these actions. Chatto was one of the young warriors involved in this incident.
Of course, we dont know things from Chatto's own perspective. But it seems to point to the attitude of a young man who was perhaps selfish and hot-headed. It is just something to consider.
dT
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