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Post by alexander on Nov 6, 2013 5:26:35 GMT -5
Hello Friends!
I need help.
I am looking for interviews with oldtimers where it is said that Crazy Horse was one of the decoy party in Fetterman Fight.
I could not find it in Ricker`s papers and in Hinmann`s “Oglala sources”.
I think that Two Moon mentioned it somewhere, but can not find where.
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Post by alexander on Nov 8, 2013 8:45:32 GMT -5
I have a feeling, that nobody knows anything about it.
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 9, 2013 3:17:47 GMT -5
I can't get at my copies of the relevant documents right now, which are in storage, but I will dig them out - but I can tell you that Rocky Bear gave two statements in the early 1900s about the Fetterman fight. In both he mentions Crazy Horse's role in the decoy party. One statement was to Addison Sheldon, and is in Sheldon's papers at the Nebraska State Historical Society; the other is in an interview he gave to a Rapid City SD newspaper.
George Hyde's classic account of the battle, in RED CLOUD'S FOLK, mentions Two Moons' account of Crazy Horse's role. Hyde was never strong on exact citations, but I feel sure that this Two Moons' statement must exist.
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Post by alexander on Nov 9, 2013 8:32:56 GMT -5
To kingsleybray:
It would be great if you print here the statements of Rocky Bear.
I do agree about Hyde. He doesn`t like citations. He prefers to say that "someone said that...", but does not give the exact words.
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Post by cinemo on Nov 9, 2013 13:41:45 GMT -5
I think, Crazy Horse was not a decoy in the Fetterman fight.
Despite the claim by Hyde, there are simply no original Indian accounts that name Crazy Horse as a decoy in the Fetterman fight. White Bull ( Miniconjou ) and others simply recorded that Crazy Horse was coming into his own at this time as a war leader of the Oglalas, inferring logically that he was probably in the fight, but no eyewitnesses claim that he was a decoy.
Source : Where a Hundred Soldiers Were Killed: The Struggle for the Powder River … , by J. H. Monnett ( chapter 7 )
The statement by Two Moons must be treated with caution , because he told the Whites many lies
cinemo
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wind
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by wind on Nov 10, 2013 4:15:29 GMT -5
William J. Bordeaux (Buffalo Killer [Ptek' asotela]) wrote in «Custer's Conqueror»:
«In my attempts to discover facts in connection with the life of Crazy Horse I have only approached those people whom I deemed to be reliable, and in my capacity as a Federal Indian Interpreter for the U. S. District Attorney's Office and as a member of the Brule Sioux, I believe I have been able to obtain access to information that will throw additional light on the character of Crazy Horse which helps to show more effectively the part that he has played in the history of his times».
«In 1866, he was cited for unusual bravery at Fort Phil Kearney where 100 soldiers were killed by the Oglala in a fight known as the Fetterman massacre. According to tribal accounts, Crazy Horse rode out into the lead waving his tomahawk and, dashing among the troopers, he belabored them one after the other with deadly strokes. "He really was flirting with death" remarked one of the old warriors who took part in the battle. An open target for the rattled bluecoats he managed to evade almost certain destruction as he tore past them again and hack to his own ranks through a curtaining rain of bullets. This daring show of bravery brought him tribal recognition and in addition to being called [ohitik'a] brave and [wak'an] holy he was also regarded from that time on as of possible importance as a future leader».
As we see, there is not a word about Crazy Horse in the decoy party. I understand that there is a «classical» myth about Crazy Horse – that he was everywhere and he was the best wherever he was. It is a «tradition» to say that he was in THAT decoy party. But there it does not make Crazy Horse worse if he was not in THAT party. Red Cloud was not in that decoy party, but he was a popular leader for many years. And let`s not forget that there were other decoys near fort Phil Kearney, they tried to trap soldiers a little earlier, but failed. Crazy Horse could be in those parties. No one knows for sure. We can talk only about the things we`ve read in books. We can not speak to the participants. And those who spoke to them was late, because He Dog, Rocky Bear, Horn Chips and others were too old and were not sure about their memory. There is a lot of contradiction in their words.
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wind
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by wind on Nov 10, 2013 4:33:39 GMT -5
From Eli Ricker [Tablet 16] Captain George Sword Interviewed at his home adjoining Day School No. 3, Pine Ridge Reservation, April 29,1907.
«He has no knowledge of any soldiers coming out from Fort Phil Kearny to reinforce the besieged. He says the wood choppers had a wagon off to them¬selves and some men were in this and they fled from the wagon and he thinks there were two of these killed».
Make a note on this: Sword does not remember any soldiers the coming out from Fort to reinforce the besieged. His memory fails. He is only a human, he does not remember a lot of things. And he – as other people – can mix one thing with another, he can easily put one person instead of other. Sword and others who talked about their history forgot many things. And the episode with the soldiers is a good example. We know that soldiers came to help Fetterman, but Sword did not remember this fact.
«He says there was no person in command of the Indians, these were young men thirsting for the fray. In those days they were not looking up to chiefs. The custom was for someone to make a feast and this gave him the privilege to act as leader. He could announce at the feast that he wished to make fight or make a foray for horses, and the braves went with him. Of course the most daring and ambitious ones would try to outstrip him; but he was on his mettle to make a brave showing; if he failed he won nothing [but] ridicule. The braves, for lack of a regular chief or leader, kept their eyes on those having repute for great bravery, and when these were seen to dash into action the others followed, and when the bravest turned back they were followed by the others again. On this occasion of the Wagon Box Fight the big braves were all there; among these Red Cloud, Crazy Horse, and Fast Thunder, the latter considered the bravest in this fight, as he went nearer the wagons than any other man. George Sword himself and his brother Sword (George at this time was called Chase the Animal, but on the death of his brother who was the chief, George became chief and took the name of Sword. At the time of this fight the father of these brothers was an old man re¬maining behind, was not in the fight.) He does not know that American Horse was in the Wagon Box Fight. Red Cloud was at the Fetterman Massacre, but he does not know that he was commanding, for in those days braves did about as stated above».
Make a note: George Sword knows Red Cloud was at the Fetterman Massacre, but he does not know that he was commanding. Soldiers thought different. And historians think different.
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Post by hreinn on Nov 14, 2013 13:43:31 GMT -5
I agree with Kingsley that Two Moons' statement must exist. [1] I can't believe that George Hyde made up the Two Moon's statement. Hyde said Two Moon gave this statement in the year 1912. [2] That could help to find Two Moon's statement. If/when we can find the reference to Two Moon's statement about Crazy Horse being the leader of the decoy party in the Fetterman Massacre. Then we have 2 independent sources who said Crazy Horse was the leader of the decoy party in the Fetterman Massacre [1]. That is Rocky Bear and Two Moon [1]. These 2 persons came from different nations, Lakota and Cheyenne. And they told this at different times and at different occasions. In general in life, if 2 independent sources agree upon something. Then it is most likely true what they are saying. Hreinn References: 1. Kingsley Bray in a reply above, Nov. 9, 2013 2. George Hyde in "Red Cloud's Folk", University of Oklahoma Press (1975), page 146
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wind
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by wind on Nov 15, 2013 5:32:30 GMT -5
I agree with Kingsley that Two Moons' statement must exist. [1] I can't believe that George Hyde made up the Two Moon's statement. Hyde said Two Moon gave this statement in the year 1912. [2] That could help to find Two Moon's statement. Then we have 2 independent sources who said Crazy Horse was the leader of the decoy party in the Fetterman Massacre [1]. That is Rocky Bear and Two Moon [1]. These 2 persons came from different nations, Lakota and Cheyenne. And they told this at different times and at different occasions. If I hear something from you and tell this "something" to someone else, there will be two statement - yours and mine. And after 100 years a historian may think that two people saw this "something" and will write that there are two statements. You are from one country, I am from another country ( 2 persons came from different nations and we make our statement at different times and at different occasions). That is why we need to know WHO said and WHAT was said. Don`t you agree? Did Two Moon and Rocky Bear saw Crazy Horse with their own eyes or was it known to them from someone`s words? When we talk about history, we have to know, not guess. That`m my point of view. I want to know and that`s why I keep asking.
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Post by grahamew on Nov 15, 2013 8:15:22 GMT -5
IT might be interesting to find out what the source is for the current idea (see Monnet, for example) that Crazy Horse wasn't a decoy.
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Post by cinemo on Nov 15, 2013 11:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by grahamew on Nov 15, 2013 13:48:57 GMT -5
So it's an absence of evidence that he was a decoy rather than evidence he wasn't.
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Post by hreinn on Nov 16, 2013 8:33:54 GMT -5
Wind You missed the crucial part. That is "independent". Not sources but "independent sources". If we follow the example you gave: If I tell you something and you tell someone else that. Then what you said, depends on what I told you. You depend on me. We are 2 sources but not independent sources. So, yes I agree with you it matters to know who said what and to whom and when. Did Two Moon and Rocky Bear saw Crazy Horse with their own eyes or was it known to them from someone`s words? I have not read the statements of Rocky Bear or Two Moon, so I don't know if they were telling what they saw or heard. But: 1. Both Two Moon and Rocky Bear fought this battle. 2. In a battle like this, each warrior/soldier has to think about himself. They don't watch others so much. In a battle like this each warrior notices only events closest to them. 3. Noone or very few were actual eyewitnesses to the action of the decoy party. Because all or almost all the warriors were hiding behind ridges at some distance. So noone saw everything during this battle. But if someone is able to talk about this battle, then it is those who fought it and their contemporaries. When we talk about history, we have to know, not guess. That`m my point of view. When we talk about history, we NEVER have a full detail of a particular event from one source. We always have to piece together information from various sources. When 2 independent sources agrees upon something, then as said, that is most likely to be true. To my best of knowledge, there is no information available which casts a doubt on that Rocky Bear and Two Moon are 2 independent sources. Until proven otherwise, it is therefore most likely correct what Rocky Bear and Two Moon said, that is Crazy Horse was in the decoy party. Hreinn
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wind
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by wind on Nov 16, 2013 13:54:22 GMT -5
Someone who has a book, a newspaper or something else with the statements of Rocky Bear and Two Moon has to put them here to stop our questions and doubts. People write books, biographies and we can`t find information. How can it be?
For examle - I am writing a book about my family and mention that my granfather was killed in the war, I will tell where I dot this information. Someone told me or I have an official document? If someone told me, then I must explain who told me - a person who was near him or a person who just heard from somone else that my grandfathe was killed. That`s why I insist on one point: If the book is written, there must be printed the exact words, otherwise it looks like fiction. I may be wrong, but if there is no evidence we have to admit that there is only talk.
There is a great lack of historical facts. But I am sure we have some professionals here who have more information than others. And I am just asking for help.
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Post by hreinn on Nov 17, 2013 11:22:53 GMT -5
Sources for Crazy Horse being part of the decoy party in the Fetterman fight: 1. Rocky Bear in the early 1900s (he died in October 29, 1909), in a statement to Addison Erwin Sheldon [1] 2. Rocky Bear in the early 1900s (he died in October 29, 1909), in an interview with a Rapid City SD newspaper. [1] 3. Two Moon in 1912 [1, 2]
Hreinn
References: 1. Kingsley Bray in a reply above, November 9, 2013 2. George Hyde in "Red Cloud's Folk", University of Oklahoma Press (1975 (first published in 1937)), page 146
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