Wild and Remarkable Characters

[dT]

There is a lot of specific discussion here about faces and geneology - which is OK. One thing that I find very interesting about the period of time from 1861-1886 (the Apache Wars) is the number of "wild and remarkable" people who emerged. It seems to have happened on all fronts - Apache and white people. There were just a lot of people with extraordinary abilities. I do not believe that all of the talk about "old west characters" is just hype and hyperbole. These people did some pretty amazing things. For the Apaches there were certainly some of the most famous chiefs and raiders: Mangus Colorado, Cochise, Victorio, Nana, and Geronimo. For the white people: Al Sieber was notoriously brave, Britton Davis was no slouch in his pursuit of Geronimo, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday were the real deal, while Curley Bill, John Ringo and the McLaury brothers earned real reputations as outlaws.

Many other notable people lived then, although they are not recorded. One good example was mentioned here in another thread: Will Rice. A man with a background just as remarkable as the rest.

It is difficult to say why such extraordinary people all came into existence in this time period. Perhaps one contributing factor was the end of the Civil War in 1865 ... which caused many former soldiers to look for new work on the frontier. For whatever reason, some people seem to have decided to "shine brightly" - even if their lifestyle did not last too long. :-)

dT

[besh]

I'd add Lt. Chas. Gatewood, the man who although sick had the guts to enter Geronimo's hostile camp & talk them into surrendering & Gen, O. Howard who did the same w/ Cochise.

[dT]

besh - yes fair enough. we should include Lt Gatewood who labored in his own system for some justice for the Apaches. I did not realize until a about a year ago that Gatewood was suffering from some type of illness, which is why they stationed him in the White Mtns. He was a plucky individual, jsut had some problems with that harsh AZ climate. I'll look into the story about Gen Howard - not familiar with the details.

dT

[Deleted]

dt, read "Making Peace With Cochise" It is the journal of Capt. Sladen who accompanied Gen Howard on his journey to Cochise Stronghold to make a treaty with Cochise, which soon led to the formation of a Chiricahua reservation with Tom Jeffords as agent. The forward of the book is written by Ed Sweeney.

[dT]

redpaint - thanks. I will definitely read the book.

dT

[jasper4]

Tom Jeffords or 'red beard' called by the nde of Hardwood. Capt Crawford another unsung hero of the apache wars mainly in pursuit of Biduyah or the warmsprings in new mexico. Or cuchillo negro or black knife a subchief under Dasodahe(he who sits there) or yellow coyote warrior and sub chief under Biduyah( victorio) the list of the unknown yet brave inde who were killed before the last broncos ie Naiche and he who yawns. Juh cousin to geronmio and the band which lived and died in old mexico. The list goes on yet Freedom for any group is a cherished trait. Enjun

[dT]

"cuchillo negro or black knife" ... someone I don't know. i will have to find out more information about him.
thanks, dT

[besh]

Archie McIntosh, Scout & George Wratten, interpreter also were very interesting & did their part. I think most remarkable men rose to the occasion & did what was needed @ the time much like "the greatest generation" did in WWII. IMHO Mickey Free & Chatto fit the "wild" description since although they served as a scouts & interpreters they often stirred up trouble w/ Geronimo & others when on the reservation.

[dT]

hope I don't offend anyine by saying this. but it's too bad that someone in the old days didn't boot Mickey Free out of AZ completely. seems like that one man had more of a knack for stirring up trouble and resentment than all others combined. i'm not even sure if Geronimo would have gone on his last one or two raids -except for all the BS that Mickey Free was feeding into his ears. It was a bad combination that Mickey liked to tell bold faced lies to irritate Geronimo, and as you pointed out Geronimo was the kind of guy who could take offence to things quickly.

I do have to say though - everyone you see in those old photo's (like CS Fly pix) were a tough bunch of characters. It sure must have been hard to be getting around Arizona in 120-degree heat. those kinds of temperatures would knock me on my butt :-)

dT

[Deleted]

Had it not been for Mickey Free, the Apache wars may never have occurred. Mickey Free a.k.a. Felix Ward was kidnapped as a boy, and it is is he that the whole Bascom Affair occured over. Bascom accused Cochise for the kidnapping of Ward when in fact it was Arivaipa Apaches. We all know the chain of events that followed for decades after. Also to learn more about Cuchillo Negro, read Sweeney's book "Mangus Coloradas" Cuchillo Negro was the leader of the Warm Springs Apaches prior to Mangus Coloradas. In fact there is a town named Cuchillo which is next to the Cuchillo river, and this was Cuchillo Negro's stomping grounds, including the Black Range and Canada Alamosa. You can get there by going west from Truth or Consequenses, New Mexico, about 8 miles.

[besh]

True, before the Bascom debacle Cochise was on friendly terms & had a firewood contract @ the stage stop near Ft. Bowie. Bascoms infamous screw-up started a war that lasted 20 years & cost countless lives on both sides.

[jasper4]

Nov 8, 2013 12:45:07 GMT -5 @redpaint said:

Had it not been for Mickey Free, the Apache wars may never have occurred. Mickey Free a.k.a. Felix Ward was kidnapped as a boy, and it is is he that the whole Bascom Affair occured over. Bascom accused Cochise for the kidnapping of Ward when in fact it was Arivaipa Apaches. We all know the chain of events that followed for decades after. Also to learn more about Cuchillo Negro, read Sweeney's book "Mangus Coloradas" Cuchillo Negro was the leader of the Warm Springs Apaches prior to Mangus Coloradas. In fact there is a town named Cuchillo which is next to the Cuchillo river, and this was Cuchillo Negro's stomping grounds, including the Black Range and Canada Alamosa. You can get there by going west from Truth or Consequenses, New Mexico, about 8 miles.

blak knife was still sub nantan under he who sits there due to juan jose was killed by the gringos thus he who sits there was chosen and black knife served under he who sits there or dasodahae.

[dT]

it's definitely true that Bascom destroyed any hopes for a peaceful coexistence. Bascom is the classic example of a young over-zealous Army officer who operated on a lot of heresay and prejudice, and not much common sense. His mistakes cost the lives of a LOT of people, and possibly ruined any chance for the Chiricahuas to get a better deal for their own native american reservation.

But still I think what Jasper4 is saying is also true. If Bascom hadn't come along and did what he did - someone else in the Nd'aa would have started that war with Cochise. There were too many white men, especially gold prospectors, who were willing to take any land that might give them a profit. THe "gold rush" did happen all over the West, and Arizona was no different. So Cochise would have been forced to fight, or give up much his lands, sooner or later.

dT

[jasper4]

Many have not heard of seth mooda and Salvador whom were sons of He Who Sits There. whom sons of Kodo who was whitemoutain daugther of Kutuhala of the whitemountain. For many before had fought the mexicans before the gringo came.

[jasper4]

Oct 14, 2013 16:16:58 GMT -5 besh said:

I'd add Lt. Chas. Gatewood, the man who although sick had the guts to enter Geronimo's hostile camp & talk them into surrendering & Gen, O. Howard who did the same w/ Cochise.

Gatewood was with Martine and Kaityah two scouts and kin of those who were with he who yawns. The fact of the matter was the women and others whom made the vote to give up for the childrens sake or for the pure sake of life over death. It has been said that when he who yawns came down with the rest that he look at gatewood and with hands helds out and shaking asked gatewood if he had any whiskey to drink. The christian or bible general O howard a good man who was on the grants staff during the gringo war.