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Post by dT on Aug 23, 2013 14:42:59 GMT -5
Does anyone know what kind of wood the Nde people used for their arrows? I'm sure if they were hungry, they would probably have made arrows from many sources. But usually there is a preferred source of wood - because the stiffness of arrows (amount of bending) is important for accuracy.
Just for background - the Coquille Indians in Oregon made their arrows from fallen logs of cedar wood. They found this wood to be the very best fo arrows. Today that discovery continues, and people still buy wooden arrows from commerical vendors made from Port Orford White Cedar. It is because of the unique properties of the weight and stiffness of the cedar wood - which give the arrows superior performance.
Any thoughts on Nde arrows?
thanks, dT
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Post by cinemo on Aug 24, 2013 4:32:05 GMT -5
Hi, dt
The Apaches used various sorts of wood. For examples: mountain mahagony; Apache plume ; mulberry or sometimes desert broom.
Another ( longer ) arrow was made of cane or reed, the foreshaft of that arrow was fitted with hardwood
Presumably, I think, there were other varieties.
cinemo
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Post by dT on Aug 24, 2013 8:54:58 GMT -5
cinemo - thanks. I will look into those woods. if I succeed in making some good homemade arrows from the trees you mentioned ... I will post pictures.
update: I took a quick look at those bushes and trees on Yahoo images. a lot of those trees have branches that are very bent. it would not be easy to find a branch that gives a long straight arrow. maybe for the mulberry - might be done. there was definitely more going on with Apache arrow making skills than it appears just from a first glance. I wonder if they traveled to the mountains to find better trees?
dT
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Post by pullingup on Aug 29, 2013 8:10:35 GMT -5
Opler reports the Chiricahua Apache use of Apache plume, mulberry (which, as with the bows, would have to be morus microphylla), mountain mahogany, or false mockorange for the arrows that are entirely of hardwood. Opler does not mention of what the foreshafts of cane arrows are made. Goodwin’s informants mention Desert broom being used for arrows by the Western Apache. Also they mention that the best cane for arrows grew on the Gila river a little below where Coolidge dam is now. They also mentioned foreshafts of catclaw. I’ve seen no information on the arrows of the Mescalero or the Jicarilla or the Lipan or the Kiowa-Apache. I’ve seen Apache arrows in museums that seem very sturdy and I have seen some that seems almost impractically thin and light. There seems to have been a lot of specialization for different uses.
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Post by dT on Aug 29, 2013 14:52:10 GMT -5
thanks for your post. the next time I am out in AZ I will search around and see if I can find wood from some of these sources. if I'm successful in making traditional arrows from any of those woods I will post some pix. it is possible that the old-day Nde warriors were skilled at straightening pieces of branches to get good arrows. in fact, to some extent I still need to do that myself, and I plan to use hot flame to dry the wood while it is being stretched. possibly the Nde used the same trick.
it's interesting that the subject of "light arrows versus heavy arrows" has not gone away. it remains a big bone of contention, or at least discussion, in the modern world today. these days modern hunters can buy good lightweight arrows from archery stores - arrows made from carbon fibers. the arrows are light, stiff and fly at very high speeds. hence they allow archers to shoot arrows in almost straight-line trajectories - not much drop before the arrow hits the target. however, professional hunting guides keep telling new hunters not to stalk large game animals with these arrows. numbers like "kinetic energy" don't mean everything. a good solid arrow that is heavier will get better penetration into an animal, especially if it must go through gristle, or bounce off bone (ribs). the light arrows are fragile and not robust. i am guessing all the same things were known to the old Nde hunters, which is why they did make hardwood arrows and also had lighter ones (for small game).
dT
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Post by Mithlo on Aug 29, 2013 18:09:34 GMT -5
I make my arrows out of red cedar (photo below), but I also make arrows out of dogwood.
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Post by dT on Aug 29, 2013 19:10:23 GMT -5
mithlo - if you don't mind I will send you some private messages. I am trying oak and cherry right now, but I could switch to cedar. that's beautiful work by the way. the quiver is really NICE - did you do that, or do you have a friend who does that? dT
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Post by Mithlo on Sept 2, 2013 22:52:44 GMT -5
Thanks...................Make everything ourselves.................can't learn that from no book!!!! HA!!
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Post by dT on Sept 3, 2013 23:33:49 GMT -5
Hahahaha! Good for you Mithlo. we will get on well.
for everyone else ... Mithlo is not only making very fine arrows (which are consistent in how they fly), but he's doing it using completely traditional methods. it's a great accomplishment and it shows commitment to craftsmanship over a long period of time. Congratulations Mithlo :-)
dT
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Post by pullingup on Sept 3, 2013 23:45:26 GMT -5
I would think that the eastern red cedar - Juniperus Virginiana - that grows in Oklahoma would not make very good arrows in that it tends to have knots and to be brittle, but never having tried that wood, I might be convinced otherwise with good evidence. Eastern Red Cedar makes pretty plains-Indian style flutes. I've seen no evidence that Apaches traditionally split wood from logs to make arrows. Commercial cedar for making arrows, port orford cedar, is a bit different from the local eastern red cedar. In Oklahoma, the dogwood, Cornus Drummondii, occasionally has long straight unbranched twigs that are notably strong and would be very suitable for arrow shafts as well as providing material for Chiricahua style baskets and cradles and also drumsticks. Some non-Apaches are fond of that species of dogwood for atlatl darts. Many of the bows and arrows in museum collections are not carefully labeled and are rarely more specific than "Apache", which makes the research on the subject difficult. The identification of the wood from which bows or arrows in museum collections are made requires skill, knowledge, and frequently a microscope. Very little reliable research has been done on the subject. It is good that some families retain examples made by the old folks that can be used as guides for identification of others bows and arrows elsewhere.
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Post by dT on Sept 4, 2013 9:48:03 GMT -5
pullingup - thank you for your input. you have clearly given some very detailed thought to this subject. when I started this thread, I was wondering if Apaches liked to travel to the mountains (e.g. the Sierra Madre) because they were after special wood for bows and arrows. I do realize the Sierra Madre has a special place in the hearts of Chricahua's for other important reasons. but maybe also there are certain trees that are good for arrows. the difficulty with many bushes and trees in the desert (at lower elevations) is that they are small and stunted, and the branches are usually not long and straight. so actually the traditional Nde hunter did not have an easy task to find arrows made from exceptionally good wood ... it probably took special knowledge on where to find the right trees.
dT
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Post by Mithlo on Sept 4, 2013 16:12:19 GMT -5
I make campfire's out of "twig's"......and I make Dogwood arrow's out of "Switch"....as everyone around here calls it. And them Bows made by the old one's ......I have three.
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Post by dT on Sept 4, 2013 19:08:39 GMT -5
HAHAHA!!! Mithlo you just keep making me laugh. I see a little bit of Chiricahua wisdom coming across here. no books, brother, no books :-)
So I hope everyone gets the point he is making. we need to go away and make good arrows and bows ourselves. the learning is in the process.
right now I'd be happy with just making good arrows, Mithlo. that will take me a while :-) I will post pix when I am satisfied with them.
dT
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Post by Mithlo on Jan 13, 2014 21:55:59 GMT -5
O K !!!!! Times up!!!! HA!!!! Lets see what you've done so far!?!?!?!?
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Post by dT on Jan 14, 2014 11:03:44 GMT -5
Mithlo ... times never up for me. I am very slow. Hahahaha! I have a lot going on and also a family. But since you have reminded me - which is a good thing - I will complete one arrow in January and post at the start of Feb. What I have done is to get some shafts of wood made from oak, and I think a few from another hardwood. Then I started wondering how to make these arrows shafts perfectly straight. So I have been hanging the wooden shafts vertically (supporting them at the top with wires), and putting a heavy weight at one end (so they hang down). This should straighten the arrows. Then I will add an arrow point. I will probably put on feathers by splitting a feather, and tying it on the arrow with sinew.
The big problem for me ... and its a pretty big problem ... is that these arrows are very heavy. So they could not be used for very long shots. But they might be quite good against strong animals - if they are fired from short range. That is still a useful kind of arrow to have.
Anyway, thanks for reminding me, my friend. I can always trust a good arrow maker to keep me motivated. You need to do that!! It's a good thing Cochise didn't call me up on my cell phone and ask me to go to fight. The battle would be over, and I am still making my arrows. Hahahaha!!
Ohhh, and just so you know I am not really lazy. I also work with leather. So I made a nice leather sheath for my Bowie knife. That worked out really well. It fits the knife perfectly. I just need to decorate it now.
UPDATE - come to think of it. There's no reason why I cant finish the first heavy arrow this weekend. I will try to get it done and post pix early next week.
dT
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