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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 1, 2014 15:52:01 GMT -5
True Oglala components in the north:as I would see it after Bad Wound joined the Southern Oglalas in 1845 there were the following tiyoshpaye:
Yellow Thunder (made Shirt Wearer 1841?; father of Little Big Man). Black Rock (offshoot from Tashnahecha, acquire new name Sore-Backs; align with Bad Faces after Smoke comes north in 1841-42; father of He Dog). It's worthy of record that when I asked Wilmer Mesteth last year which band was the real, original True Oglala, he thought a little then answered the tiyoshpaye of He Dog and his brothers.
The Ghost Boy tiyoshpaye was True Oglala, but aligned with the Oyuhpe maximal band after c. 1835.
The Standing Bull tiyoshpaye is variously defined as True Oglala, Hunkpatila, and Bad Face. The thing to remember that those three bands form another maximal band (comparable to the Kiyaksa-Kuhinyan-Red Water and the Oyuhpe). So they're all connected very closely, spent much of the year together - no surprise that Standing Bull family group should blur btw. them - don't look for anything TOO perfect and airtight.
By 1850 they number about 150 lodges, approx. 1050 people, about 15 tiyoshpaye.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 1, 2014 16:25:21 GMT -5
Then there is the third Maximal band - Oyuhpe. If we take as a basis for your calculations on Miniconjou in 1805 were as follows: C. Oyuhpe or Taku-hkpa-ya from Oglala 1767 • Oyuhpe • Cut Testicles • Wakan
Then there is the third Maximal band - Oyuhpe. If we take as a basis for your calculations on Miniconjou in 1805 were as follows: C. Oyuhpe or Taku-hkpa-ya from Oglala 1767 • Oyuhpe • Cut Testicles • Wakan
In "Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835" you Oyukpe indicated thus: OYUHPE J. Oyuhpe-hcka • Tobacco • White Earrings • Left-Handed Oyuhpe . Enter A Virgin K. Susu-ikitchu • Charging Hawk • Eats Buffalo Meat (Kills Bear) • Used Up By the Mouth L. Other • Ghost Boy (from Hunkpatila-True Oglala) • Bear Stands Up (from Shiyo)
Also, I read somewhere, "During the years 1835-39 Oglala tribe has grown by about 25 lodges, which is significantly higher than the standard population growth Lakota, indicates that the majority of people who come from other tribal divisions Teton. I see most of the newcomers have joined the Oyuhpe at this stage, come from Miniconjou Saone and other groups. These newcomers can transform or enhance Wakan and Makaha tiyoshpayes Oyuhpe".
Could be considered in the distribution of Oyuhpe Minikoneu in my theme for Miniconjou band
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 1, 2014 16:42:32 GMT -5
With interest to review every topic Casa Oglala. We have a shortage of information. Basically, you can only find "Red Cloud Folk" and "Witness: A Hunkpapha Historian's Strong-Heart Song of the Lakotas". Therefore, each of your answer is very important to me. Thank you all for the information. Greetings from Russia.
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 1, 2014 17:20:00 GMT -5
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 4, 2014 16:50:43 GMT -5
Hello dear Kingsley. Thank you for the link. cognitive information. You mentioned somewhere that the name of the group Wablenica happened after the incident with the death of Whirlwind's son white bull. What's the band took the name - Whirlwind family or other band? Was a man - TWO LANCE Wahukeza Nunpa (c1829-1901). Oglala: Group Wablenica, also known as the United People, Oyate Okiyupi. Two Lance was the brother of Whistler, the leader Kiyaksa band, who was killed by white hunters in November 1872. So Vablenika - Little Bull family?
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 4, 2014 17:30:13 GMT -5
The origin of the Oglala Orphans band (Wablenicha) was assigned in the John Colhoff winter count to the year 1844-45. This was the fight with the Crows and Shoshones on Stinking Water river in late 1844. There is a detailed Crow account of the fight in Edward Curtis's Crow volume. The Oglala leader killed was Male Crow, Kangi Bloka.
The fight in which White Bull was killed - the man whom I believe to be the son of Fast Whirlwind - was a different fight, took place the following summer, 1845. Later White Bulls are associated with the Peshla (Bald Head) community at Pine Ridge, Porcupine District.
Two Lance, brother of Whistler: he and his family appear in the 1890 census of the Orphan band, Wounded Knee Dist. Another brother, Man Above, is listed as headman in the Kiyaksa band, Medicine Root Dist.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 4, 2014 17:45:27 GMT -5
Thank Kingsley I came across information that Male Crow, Kangi block was somehow connected with Crazy Horse family. how true this is?
You found this information on Orphans: The Orphans band story is one that George Hyde got wrong. The story of the killing of Male Crow and his war party by Crows and Snakes, fall 1844, is the origin of the Orphan band among the Oglalas. Survivors' families formed a band which ultimately (after 1880) settled on Pine Ridge at the site of the Wounded Knee Massacre. In the period 1845-75 it was a small sub-band of the Southern or Kiyaksa Oglala division, hunting south of the Platte River.
So I correctly guessed that it was one of the band Kiyaksa?
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 4, 2014 18:03:21 GMT -5
in my CRAZY HORSE, A LAKOTA LIFE I propose that Male Crow was a brother of Crazy Horse's father.
In SPOTTED TAIL'S FOLK George Hyde retold Colhoff's story of Male Crow's death and applied it to the Brule Orphan band - Iron Shell's band. This was an error.
We have to wonder to what extent the Oglala Orphan community was a creation of the 1880s. Most of the Kiyaksa band settled in Medicine Root District. One tiyoshpaye, focussed on Two Lance, chose to settle in Wounded Knee Dist. I don't know the reasons for this realignment. This community was named the Orphans. The nearest I can come is to suggest it emerged as a distinct group in 1880 or 1881. Most of the people were undoubtedly Kiyaksa.
If you think of the logic of the Male Crow story, it makes sense that these people came south with Bad Wound in 1845. They may have formed a minor group within greater Kiyaksa, then in 1880-81 the group expanded, became a distinct camp - attracted a prominent headman Two Lance? I don't know for sure!
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Post by hreinn on Dec 7, 2014 10:21:42 GMT -5
Kingsley, OK. I was just wondering if you (or someone else) knew of a piece of a "surprise" evidence which could support the possibility that Iron Hatchet and Old Man Afraid of His Horse were the same person. You, since you have been talking to modern Lakotas (i.e. Bull Bear's descendant(s)) + read through stacks of references over decades. So this idea is just "out there", in case if a new evidence comes to light which alone would perhaps not lead to the "the same person" idea.
I was aware of the "inappropriate" marriage, but was wondering if that could be one of the examples which lead to what one reference said. That is the Kiyuksa were "breakers of the rule" by intermarriage. But that is perhaps a myth. Because I have only heard about one such case and that is from Wendell Smoke when he said Bull Bear married the oldest daughter of Smoke, Ulala/Spotted Horse Woman.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 8, 2014 11:24:14 GMT -5
Hello 1. The distribution of the Oglala you indicated that Standing Bull headed one of tiyospaye Hunkpatila. At the same time in the distribution of 1867-1868, this unit is headed by Little Hawk, brother Worm. There is another statement on the Standing Bull III: «Standing Bull III was rated by Thaddeus Culbertson as an Oglala chief in 1850, aligned with an otherwise unreported band, the Night Cloud. Possibly this was a name for his sub-division of the Hunkpatila. He was a wakichunze or Decider in the main band. When the Bad Faces organized as a large, maximal band (in 1853?), Standing Bull shifted over to that band. Alex Adams noted him as one of four Bad Face Deciders in the 1850s – the others being Smoke, White Hawk, and Brave Bear (aka Shot in the Face). Smoke and Standing Bull would have been classificatory ‘brothers’ through the Parts of Body connection, Smoke being the elder by some years.» Could not it be interconnected - that is standing Bull moved to the community Ite Sica, his cousin Smoke, and the remaining group will be headed by Little Hawk (possibly through marital ties). At the same time, there is one reference: “His last namecheck is in Twiss’s September 1858 report bearing on annuity goods under the Treaty of 1851. Old Man Afraid of His Horse, Smoke, Standing Bull, and Yellow Eagle (Hunkpatila chief) signed a document requesting certain changes in the goods supplied. No further records known to me mention Standing Bull III.” Then maybe, after his death, probably about 1860, his group and lead Little Hawk.
2. Meetings in 1865, 1868 and 1875, when the smoke II creates his own group "bald head". In 1865, the remaining part of those who remained faithful followers of the leader of Smoke, Smoke II chosen as one of the current leaders (after the death of the Old Smoke in 1864). In 1868 Smoke II and his followers are amplified many people. In 1875, followers appoint Smoke II as a leader and a white bull as their leader. It formed a new group Pesla, not related to Ite Sica or shows split of Ite Sica on contractual and non-contractual, where Pesla are peaceful faction?
3. now about the fact that Iron Hatchet and Old Man Afraid of His Horse were the same person. And you did not try to consider who was the father of the Old Man Afraid? And do not try to check and not Iron Hatchet is the father of Old Man Afraid?
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 9, 2014 4:01:10 GMT -5
hreinn and grigoyev, I haven't been able to find anything more on Iron Hatchet than the statement of Lawrence Bull Bear in 1931 - that Iron Hatchet was one of the brothers of Bull Bear and that he was the founder of the Payabya band. For the reasons stated above I find it very unlikely that he was either (a) Old Man Afraid of His Horse, or (b) the father of Old Man Afraid.
Lawrence Bull Bear is buried in St Barnabas Cemetery outside Kyle, he died on July 1, 1932 according to the headstone.
According to the statement of Old Man Afraid of His Horse, made in 1874 at Red Cloud Agency, his father and grandfather each bore the name Tashunke Kokipapi, They Fear His Horse. Men had multiple names of course. According to John Colhoff Old Man Afraid was nicknamed Kapozhe'la (lightweight), and Young Man Afraid of His Horse was nicknamed Crazy Woman.
According to He Dog (to Mekeel, 1931) the "first Old Man Afraid", so either the father or grandfather we just spoke about, belonged to the Kuhinyan band, the same tiyoshpaye as Red Cloud's father.
On the Peshla band: this was one of the founding communities of the Porcupine District at Pine Ridge. Wilmer Mesteth told me a few weeks ago that this was originally an offshoot from the Hunkpatila band. He associated Smoke with the Peshla. I think Smoke II (one of the sons of Old Smoke) is meant. Wilmer connected Smoke II's son Wendell with the Peshla-ptechela (Short Bald-head) tiyoshpaye.
According to the 1890 census the senior headmen resident in Peshla were High Wolf and Daylight. High Wolf had been rated Payabya in 1873-74 - perhaps that is the Hunkpatila connection that Wilmer refers to? Daylight was rated Wazhazha in the 1870s. All the Porcupine Dist. communities have some derivative relationship from the Wazhazha. Confusing? Maybe, but it's a clue into how we have to view these bands as not static but constantly evolving through intermarriage, and the exchange of people that entailed.
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 9, 2014 4:37:39 GMT -5
grigoryev, your inquiry about Standing Bull and Little Hawk.
I feel that yes, Little Hawk becomes the leading player in what had been the Standing Bull tiyoshpaye. The dating has to be fine tuned, though. Remember that Little Hawk was born in 1836, so was in his early twenties when Standing Bull III disappears from the scene - too young to be a 'chief'. Moreover Standing Bull IV was exactly the same age as Little Hawk. In the Big Road Roster (1881) Standing Bull IV is depicted as one of the head akichita in the Little Hawk camp.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 9, 2014 6:09:31 GMT -5
Welcome Kingsley Thanks for the answers. And what can you tell about the division Wazaza? As described in Hyde, after the death of the Scattering Bear(Wazaza) some of them led by Stabber joined the Oglala. Then, we see that Wazaza euchastvuyut in the creation of other groups or join existing ones. For example, as you've already written above: "All the Porcupine Dist. Communities have some derivative relationship from the Wazhazha."
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 9, 2014 11:04:38 GMT -5
We must have covered this before lol, but basically Wazhazha is a band name among the Sichangu, Oglala, and Sihasapa Lakotas. It is also a clan or sub-tribal name among the Dhegiha Siouans (Osage, Kansa, Omaha, Ponca). At some time - probably in the 18th c. - there were intermarriages between the Lakota and the Ponca, which generated a new grouping that joined the Sichangu. This is the beginning of the Wazhazha among the Lakota.
Victor Douville at Sinte Gleska University says that it was elements of the Kiyuksa and Wacheunpa (Roaster) tiyoshpaye that made the alliance and intermarried with the Ponca.
Although aligned with the Sichangu, the Wazhazha were always considered very independent. We get council speeches like "We, the Brules and Wazhazhas", indicating an ongoing distinction. Similarly, after many Wazhazhas realigned to the Oglalas after 1855, we get "The Oglalas and Wazhazhas". Consider the evidence of the Grattan fight, when there were two camp circles next to Bordeaux trading post - one Sichangu, one Wazhazha. So a fascinating band with a fascinatingly different history.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 25, 2014 15:24:21 GMT -5
Hello Kingsley
As you mentioned above: As a tribal baseline during winter 1867-68, I propose 607 lodges, equivalent at this timeframe to approximately 3642 people. IN THE NORTH: 340 lodges NEAR FORT LARAMIE: 127 lodges AT NORTH PLATTE (UPPER PLATTE AGENCY): 20 lodges IN THE SOUTH: 120 lodges.
On the northern division of the Oglala clear. In addition Oyuhpe. But as for the rest ... More or less clear with the southern Oglala. Of those of you in the distribution of 1846 went to the northern Oglala (and Sans Arc): Red Water, True Oglala of Sitting Bear and No Water (Hoka Yuta) and most Skokpa (Tapislecha).
NEAR FORT LARAMIE - likely Loafers and possibly Wazhazha.
Still it will be interesting to see the picture in the post-war Red Cloud - to Little Big Horn. I'll try the other day to put his version of the Oglala distribution for this period.
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