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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 31, 2014 9:00:03 GMT -5
dado, I will try to answer your points, but over two or three messages.
I think the ancestral Oglala grouping budded off the Mdewakanton-Kiyuksa during the 17th c. According to Wilmer Mesteth the new group was known as Kiyaksa. The name Oglala as far as I can make out is coined in the mid-18th c. out of a number of incidents in which the group repeatedly quarrelled and divided. The story told me by Wilmer Mesteth was that two sons of Holy Standing Buffalo disputed over the leadership of the Kiyaksa tiyoshpaye, and threw dust in each other's faces. The tiysohpaye then divided into two separate bands, Kiyaksa and Bad Face. The whole group was referred to as Oglala. Wilmer thought this was "towards 1750."
I think two or more similar quarrels occurred over the following generation, leading to the serial division of the Hunkpapa, the Shiyo band, and the Oyuhpe band. The dust scattering, or finger flicking associated with each story, can be read as a metaphor for deadly insults leveled at people who should be regarded as close kindred.
Buffalo Shield was a prominent early leader mentioned by He Dog to Mari Sandoz. I think his "time" (He Dog refers to "Buffalo Shield's time"), i.e. his period of active tribal leadership, should overlap with generation 1700-1725. I think his contemporary was Bull Bear I (the putative father of Holy Standing Buffalo), and that Buffalo Shield may be in the family grouping that leads into the Bad Face band.
I was interested in your linking Black Moccasin with Red Hair (Thinks While Walking), who was one of the early Calf Pipe keepers. Can you let us/me know your reasons for the linkage? and then on to the Crow Feather line? It would be much appreciated to discuss these matters - Kingsley
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 4, 2014 4:30:55 GMT -5
At the beginning of this thread I posted a baseline Oglala tribal structure for c. 1804 (time of first Oglala contact with USA), listing bands, sub-bands, leading families and so on. Here is a second proposed baseline, set at 1835, the year the Oglala tribe consolidated in the North Platte valley and southeast Wyoming, having moved down from the Black Hills to trade at the new post Fort Laramie (see the Bull Bear and his family thread). They held a Sun Dance near the post, elevating a new cohort of Shirt Wearers and re-arranging the tribal circle after the final dissolution of the old Shiyo band, and the assimilation of many Miniconjou-Saone visitors into the re-chartered Oyuhpe band. My proposal looks like this:
Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835
Approximately 2000 people, 275 lodges. Four major bands (oshpaye) – Kuhinyan, Hunkpatila-True Oglala, Payabya, Oyuhpe. Reconstructed composition of bands, with 33 leading families/headmen comprising chiefs’ council: KUHINYAN (southwest quadrant of tribal circle, 'chief place'). A. Kiyaksa • Bull Bear • Mad Dog • Self-Met • Two Crows tiyoshpaye B. Kuhinyan • Little Bull • Paints His Chin Red • Lone Man C. Other • Calfskin Robe (Shkokpa) • Stabber (Wacheunpa) • Standing Bull II (from True Oglala) HUNKPATILA-TRUE OGLALA (southeast quadrant of tribal circle, 'home horn'). D. True Oglala • Smoke (Bad Face) • Yellow Thunder (Refuse to Move Camp)
E. Tashnahecha • Bad Wound II • No Water • Black Rock (Sore Backs)
F. Hunkpatila • Standing Bull III • Yellow Eagle • Black Elk, Makes the Song PAYABYA (northeast quadrant of tribal circle, 'north horn') G. (from Kuhinyan) • Man Afraid of His Horse • Iron Hatchet H. (from Hunkpatila-True Oglala) • Fast Whirlwind (Bad Face) • Sitting Bear (Bear “clan”, according to descendant Joe American Horse) I. (from Shiyo) • Shell Man • White Bull
OYUHPE (northwest quadrant of tribal circle, equivalent to space offered honoured visitor within a tipi). J. Oyuhpe-hcka • Tobacco • White Earrings • Left-Handed Oyuhpe . Enter A Virgin K. Susu-ikitchu • Charging Hawk • Eats Buffalo Meat (Kills Bear) • Used Up By the Mouth L. Other • Ghost Boy (from Hunkpatila-True Oglala) • Bear Stands Up (from Shiyo)
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 4, 2014 5:44:13 GMT -5
A couple observations. Payabya I suspect was always a bit of a fiction. Its formation did a number of things. It healed up a growing breach between True Oglala-Hunkpatila and Kuhinyan. It extended Kuhinyan-derived influence to the prestigious 'horns' position of the circle, as well as the chief place opposite the entrance. Iron Hatchet the 'founder' of Payabya was a brother of Bull Bear. It served as a connection point between Hunkpatila and Kuhinyan in all sorts of ways. Two of the tiyoshpayes I have placed in it in 1835 moved emphatically southward to join Bull Bear's people who increasingly focussed in the North Platte valley and further southward, rolling back Pawnee claims to the Platte forks region. These were Fast Whirlwind and Sitting Bear, both of whom had strong 'True' Oglala credentials. By contrast 'Old' Man Afraid of His Horse (in 1835 he was 27 years old) shifted his usual residence from Kuhinyan northward to the Hunkpatila, which aggressively expanded new hunting range along the upper South Fork Cheyenne river towards the upper North Platte and upper Powder river district. In this they were aided by the Oyuhpe and their Miniconjou affiliates.
Oyuhpe as always is a little vaguer than the other groups, the data less tightly focussed. So their breakdown is even more speculative than the rest! Across 1835-39 the Oglala tribe grew by about 25 lodges, significantly higher than standard Lakota population growth so indicating more people coming in from other Teton tribal divisions. To me most of the newcomers look like they're going into Oyuhpe at this stage, derived from Miniconjou and other Saone bands. Going out even further on my limb (and sawing frantically?) these newcomers may morph into, or augment the Wakan and Makaha tiyoshpayes of the Oyuhpe. So Nicollet in 1839 would learn that there were three maximal Oglala bands (I mean bands with specific territorial claims to subsets of the tribal/national domain), the Kuhinyan, Hunkpatila, and Oyuhpe, each comprising 100 lodges.
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dado
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Post by dado on Sept 6, 2014 6:31:50 GMT -5
Hello Kingsley, thanks for the extensive information of your last articles. Thank you, that we may share it in the forum.
A lot sounds understandable, merely the development (creation) of the Oyuhpe band stays partially open. What are your last thoughts to this subject?
Whether there is a connection between the Black Moccasin / Standing Holy Buffalo family and the later family of Crow Feather I, is for us a farther thrilling question. The following information we have found on this subject: We refers to the list of Pipe Keepers given by Curtis. 1. Tatanka-najhin, Standing Buffalo, who is said to have received it directly from White Buffalo Woman. 2. The next keeper was the brother of Standing Buffalo, Pehinsha, Red Hair (Thinks While Walking) 3. The pipe then descended to Hehaka-pa, Elk Head I, who was succeeded by his brother, Mato-makpa, Bear's Ear. 5. Then followed in order Wi-hi nanpa, Rising Sun; 6. He-hehiiloghesha, Hollow Horn; 7. Hehaka-pa, Elk Head.
Thus Thinks While Walking could be the uncle or brother / cousin of Black Moccasins (Minisha bound) about his fatherly line (Holy Standing Buffalo). Bear’s Ear was killed killed 1791 (Fire Thunder winter count), Elk Head I died 1846-47. Both were sons of Red Elk. It is unlikely that there were from 1791 to 1846 only one or two Calf Piper in the time. Farther it can be speculated that the father of Crow Feather I has been a leading (prominent) headman of the Sans Arcs in the time before 1812 or 1815-16. Then we quote the New York Times from the year 1870: Crow Feather was a delegate to Washington, D.C. in 1870. The article in the New York Times mentioned that Crow Feather was head chief of the Sans Arc "and the chief who carries what is called by them the God Almighty pipe of the Sioux Indians. The pipe is over one hundred years old, and has never been undressed since its adoption as a sacred object."
Besides, Red Cloud has told that he is related to Crow Feather. Moreover, he has stated that the Oglala have been in old time Sans Arcs. We remember also to a statement in the „Brief Biography of Crow Feather“: “… Beside his lodge, stood a tall pole from which hung a sacred bundle containing a ceremonial pipe fashioned by Crow Feather himself… “ ; “This pipe came to be regard as sacred, i.e. to the Calf Pipe itself.” Hence, Crow Feather I could have been in the time about 1820-30 keeper of the Calf Pipe. Unfortunately, these sources are uncertain. Some sense makes this only if the father of Crow Feather I (as one founder of the later Itazipcho-hcha camp) has split of his family group from the old Minisha Band (and not from an other old Saone group). Nevertheless, we also suppose a relationship between Metal Hair Ornaments and the Itazipcho-hcha? Nevertheless, this is only such a feeling. The likely connection (union) between the Oyuhpe and the Shiyo is interesting also. It is likely, that’s parts of the Oyuhpe (as part of the Ta corpa?) have preferred to live with the Sicangu hoop in the time from 1800. Provided that there is an old connection between the Oyuhpe and the Shiyo, would this be an explanation why the Shiyo would also have moved to the Sicangu hoop?
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 6, 2014 12:19:04 GMT -5
The day after I posted the above stuff, I did sit down and try to piece together the Oyuhpe evidence. Until yesterday I still had gaps in my thinking of the period 1700-1850 for the Oyuhpe but now I have plugged nearly all of them.
It's a big span of time and subject, this is just a summary of thinking.
Generation 1700-25: the ancestral Oglala intermarry extensively with the ancestral Shiyo. The latter I think equate with Le Sueur's Psincaton. Out of this is generated Sage's camp. At this time, with a hiatus in French trade encouraging bands to live on the plains year-round, all these bands are focussing further west. Sage's camp, I suggest by c. 1725, regularly interacts with the Two Kettle-Broken Arrow band on the coteau southwest of Big Stone Lake. They intermarry - according to John Colhoff a bunch of Broken Arrow women at some time married Oglala men. This is why Caspar Collins in c. 1864 writes about the "Yocapes, or broken arrows." 1734: The year of the Fighting Dance according to John K. Bear winter count, and the start of dramatic downturn in Lakota-French relations, I think is equivalent to Eagle Elk's memory of the year Yankton introduced the Strong Heart dance/society to the ancestral Oglala, synchronised with the coining of the name Oyuhpe. Thus Sage's camp becomes a fully fledged band, recognized by other divisions with a specific name and so on. At this stage the Yankton may have applied the name to all the ancestral Oglala, perceived as being slovenly, poor etc. - the connotations of the name Oyuhpe. By 1750 the Oyuhpe were possibly the biggest band within ancestral Oglala. 1750s: the proto-Hunkpapa split from the Oyuhpe. One of the dirt scattering incidents that results in the name Oglala.The Oyuhpe fuse with the Cheyenne Masikota band, creating the name Taku-hkpaya, Something Laying Dead, a pun on Oyuhpe, and meaning exactly the same as Masikota (Corpse From A Scaffold, Body Laying Flexed and so on). Continuing the northern, Saone slant of marriages in the 1720s, the Oyuhpe band interacts with elements of the Miniconjou. 1768 "Anugobiyepi, another tribal division of the Tetons, parted from Oglala, went north." Makula winter count in J. Waggoner, WITNESS. I am certain this is the breakup of the Oglala, and the Oyuhpe-Taku-hkpaya (Ta Coropa etc.) going to live with the Miniconjou. Yhe alternative possibility, that it marks the split of the Hunkpapa from the Oglala, is negated by the presence of the Hunkpapa and Sihasapa in the 1761 entry for John K. Bear - so Hunkpapa must have already crystalised.The Oyuhpe will remain with the Miniconjou for almost seventy years (wicho-ichage, a lifetime: not a coincidence?) until the band shifted back to the Oglalas during the early 1830s. I have worked out a detailed reconstruction of the latter events, climaxing with the 1835 Sun Dance (see above), but let me do some more piecing together. Please send thoughts, dado, hreinn, and all interested. I like the feedback.
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 6, 2014 13:04:55 GMT -5
I'm still a little shaky on the exact priority of events involving the split of the Hunkpapa. Lt Warren in 1855 picked up a tradition that about 100 years earlier the Hunkpapa "mixed with 165 lodges of Sheyens."
This is surely connected to the Taku-hkpaya - Masikota synthesis I wrote about.But is it the same event, or another (later?) stage? I'm sorry these messages are a bit scrappy, busy day!
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dado
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Post by dado on Sept 7, 2014 9:48:58 GMT -5
Thank you Kingsley. The Puzzle of Oyuhpe becomes an image !! That you share with us your research and evaluations and we may give some feedback, to us it is a pleasure.
Regarding the history of the Oglalas we do not want to lose sight of the development of the other later Lakota tribes.
Therefore, we have - let's say for the period 1740-1760 - a list of the Northern nation situated.
a) Minisha (Red Water) b) Wahin-wega (Broken Arrow) c) Unkche yuta (Dung Eaters) d) Saone ?
Who the Saone were remains for us indefinite! For John Grass the Saone were (Those Who Wear Honor well) the parent body - the keystone of the round arch - the First, or Royal Family.
It would be great suggestions and corrections to get to this matter.
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 7, 2014 11:17:18 GMT -5
oh boy, dado.
One thing I need to say is I think I have unwittingly misled you guys. The early Oglala - ancestral Oglala, pre-Oglala - leader called Holy Standing Buffalo. He is not the same (at least I don't think he is the same!) man as the first Calf Pipe keeper, Bull Walks Upright (aka Standing Hollow Horn). His name definitely references the keeper's name, and it commemorates the relationship, established by marriage, later connected by blood, btw. the Minisha/the Calf Pipe and the ancestral Oglala. As far as dates go, remember we can only deal in approximations but my reasoning is that Holy Standing Buffalo was born late in the 1600s. The first Calf Pipe keeper? Well, we have a complication because there were at least two Calf Pipes: (a) an original animal legbone 'true' pipe; and (b) a catlinite (red stone) calumet pipe. The chronology is explained at length in my book ms, so without spoilering the story too much - pipe (a) could go back as far as the 10th c. AD - that is the chronology propounded in the cycle winter counts of Battiste Good and others. The catlinite pipe is later by several centuries. Long story short - my reasoning is that it fits into the 1500s. And that is where Bull Walks Upright fits.
Ok, my reasoning on the Saoni oyate (Northern nation) at baseline 1750 would look like this:
1. Minishala, Red Water (Calf Pipe Bundle kept within this group) 2. Saoni proper (what Victor Douville called "the other part of the Sans Arcs") 3. Black-Topped Tipis, or Minikanye-wozhu (Miniconjou; incliding the Dung Eaters, descended from Le Sueur's Dung village) 4. Broken Arrow-Two Kettle 5. Sihasapa (this name probably coined somewhat after 1750)
These are large bands of a few hundred people each. Each was composed of smaller tiyoshpaye. Some would have had names we recognize - some would have names that have been forgotten as groups blurred and merged and split. And plain died out - the Lakota were still in the cycle of depopulation from new European diseases at this stage.
The Grass family traditions enshrined in the Angela Boleyn biography of John Grass (unpublished) are important - but in the nature of human nature, they magnify the grandeur and magnificence of their own (Sihasapa) background. If you had been able to ask the Minisha they would have said the same sort of thing about their own band. I'm not saying anything negative - like I say it's human nature to tell a stranger that, yup, our family is the business here.
At this stage, as your list implies, the Hunkpapa don't exist as a separate entity. They are still part of the Oglala-Shiyo-Chaienaton/Masikota band cluster. Their bunch is called Inkpapaya, because they live at the head, i.e. upstream, i.e further north than the rest of the cluster. But during the next generation, timeframe 1750-75, the Hunkpapa will split off (broadly speaking 1750s), then the Oyuhpe will split off (1760s) from the Oglala cluster. All part of the realignment of bands and larger divisions as they move across the Missouri valley and become horse nomads.
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 8, 2014 3:36:57 GMT -5
As a final year to present a breakdown of Oglala population and sub-divisions, I've selected 1868, the year of the treaty of Ft Laramie. The data are becoming much richer and fine-grained. When we assess the progress of events in the north, we can follow how each band repeatedly fissions and realigns, with reasonable control on the numbers and the leaders involved.
As a tribal baseline during winter 1867-68, I propose 607 lodges, equivalent at this timeframe to approximately 3642 people. IN THE NORTH: 340 lodges NEAR FORT LARAMIE: 127 lodges AT NORTH PLATTE (UPPER PLATTE AGENCY): 20 lodges IN THE SOUTH: 120 lodges.
Let's turn to the people IN THE NORTH. The bands at this timeframe look to break down like this.
Oyuhpe 100 lodges Bad Face 80 lodges Hunkpatila 70 lodges True Oglala 50 lodges Spleen 40 lodges Total: 340 lodges
Bad Face Red Cloud 10 lodges Brave Bear 10 lodges Trunk/White Hawk 10 lodges Black Twin 20 lodges He Dog 10 lodges Milk 5 lodges Chasing Cat (Shikshichela) 15 lodges Comments: Shikshichela is a difficult band to classify. Was it primarily associated with the Bad Face, or the Oyuhpe? Some of the personnel probably 'float' to Miniconjou and Sans Arc (where sister bands exist). The relative recorded size of Bad Face and Oyuhpe in April 1867 suggest Shikshichela probably aligned with Bad Face in 1868. Black Twin and He Dog represent continuities from No Water and Black Rock respectively in the 1835 baseline.
Hunkpatila-Payabya Man Afraid of His Horse 10 lodges High Wolf 10 lodges Yellow Eagle 15 lodges Little Hawk 15 lodges Worm-Crazy Horse 15 lodges Black Elk 5 lodges Comments: Man Afraid of His Horse and High Wolf comprise Payabya. High Wolf tiyoshpaye possible continuation of Shell Man’s tiyoshpaye (see 1835 baseline). Little Hawk may represent continuity from Standing Bull tiyoshpaye.
True Oglala Sitting Bear 20 lodges American Horse 10 lodges Little Big Man 10 lodges Refuse to Move 10 lodges Comments: Sitting Bear (and American Horse) tiyoshpaye moved n. from Southern Oglala c. 1858-59. Little Big Man and Refuse to Move represent continuity from Yellow Thunder tiyoshpaye (see 1835 baseline). True Oglala associated closely with Bad Face during 1860s.
Spleen Black Hawk 20 lodges Face 10 lodges Tall Man 10 lodges Comments: Large number of Spleen people in north during 1867-68. Before 1867 much of the band focussed among the Southern Oglala, with Pawnee Killer. This movement is reflected in relatively low numbers Southern Oglala recorded during winter 1867-68 – 120 lodges.
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dado
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Post by dado on Sept 8, 2014 5:50:18 GMT -5
Oh, thank Kingsley, for clarifying lines on "Calf Pipers". The whole is a very complex issue, since we were on the "wrong track" with our assumptions. Nevertheless, the whole thing is so exciting ...
Greetings from the twins dado
In Haste: Thank you for the overview for 1868; the number of lodges fits to the estimates of John S. Gray and Catherine Price.
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 10, 2014 3:34:14 GMT -5
In December 1867-January 1868 there were two basic Northern Oglala villages. Red Cloud's village of 200 lodges spent the early part of the winter on upper Rosebud creek. Its council was based on the Ska Yuha (White Horse Owners) society, and its complement of four Deciders were Red Cloud, Black Twin, High White Man, Standing Bear. Red Cloud's brother Spider filled important akichita functions and served as an intermediary, counselling at both Ft Phil Kearny and Ft Laramie.
This is how I see the breakdown:
Bad Face 60 lodges Hunkpatila 10 lodges True Oglala 10 lodges Spleen 20 lodges Oyuhpe 100 lodges
At the same time Man Afraid of His Horse was encamped near Bear Lodge Butte at the nw. corner of the Black Hills. The village, by difference 140 lodges, recognized the chiefs' society, or Bull Headdress Wearers, as the council. The breakdown approximates:
Bad Face 20 lodges Hunkpatila 60 lodges True Oglala 40 lodges Spleen 20 lodges
In February 1868 25 lodges left Man Afraid of His Horse's village for Fort Laramie pending treaty talks. I reconstruct the makeup as:
Spleen 10 lodges headman Face Hunkpatila 10 lodges headman Yellow Eagle Bad Face 5 lodges headman Milk
In March 1868 the two major villages, now aggregating 315 lodges, gathered near Powder R. forks, probably in a cluster of camps strung along the river. By early April they were resorted into four separate camps nearer the Black Hills, recorded by Lakota messengers from Ft Laramie as follows:
Man Afraid of His Horse & Red Cloud 90 lodges at Bear Lodge creek American Horse (True Oglala) 50 lodges head Bear Lodge creek Bad Face 100 lodges on Belle Fourche Oyuhpe 75 lodges on Belle Fourche
How had the bands resorted? Perhaps like this:
Red Cloud & Man Afraid of His Horse Bad Face 30 lodges Hunkpatila 30 lodges Spleen 30 lodges
American Horse True Oglala 50 lodges
Bad Face camp Bad Face 45 lodges Hunkpatila 30 lodges Oyuhpe 25 lodges
Oyuhpe camp Oyuhpe 75 lodges
As treaty negotiations at Fort Laramie drew nearer, and spring drew on, the four camps moved toward reunion in a single village. Since the Man Afraid & Red Cloud camp was recounted at 100 lodges by the end of April, 10 lodges have moved into it. From known activities, this must be American Horse bringing his own tiyoshpaye of True Oglala. The council then deputed American Horse to go to the fort and attend the Brule negotiations then being held there.
Shortly after that the other three camps, aggregating 215 lodges, united into a single village.
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Post by hreinn on Sept 11, 2014 17:46:32 GMT -5
Kingsley, Unfortunatelly, I am of little help in these matters. I lack the sources and the overview of the subject which you have. Therefore it is only minor things I can mention at this moment. Are there any sources which rule out that, the fusion of Oyuhpe + Cheyenne (Masikota (and Shiyo ?)) happened before the split of proto-Hunkpapa happened ? If not, it would mean that Oyuhpe would already have been a mixture of Oglala + Cheyenne, before the split of proto-Hunkpapa from Oyuhpe. So it would not have been a coincidence that the proto-Hunkpapa went north. And it was not a coincidence that they met with and formed an alliance with some Cheyennes (165 lodges). It was all planed before-hand, because part of the proto-Hunkpapa were Cheyenne. And they had decided to move from the Oyuhpe camp (because of disagreement) to align themselves with other Cheyennes, probably Cheyenne relatives. Are there any sources which rule out the possibility that Shiyo was somehow derived from Suhtai ? I am not fully convinced that the Shiyo were "chickens" Even though it happens that we have a Lakota prairie chicken word, which sounds similar as the word Shiyo or whatever word was said in the old days, when people were writing down the name of that group. I buy the idea that Shiyo (at least part of the Shiyo) had Cheyenne roots. Therefore my "obsession" ( ) with the possible Shiyo - Suhtai connection.
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Post by shatonska on Sept 12, 2014 8:35:51 GMT -5
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Post by waganari on Sept 12, 2014 13:14:28 GMT -5
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Post by hreinn on Sept 12, 2014 18:00:06 GMT -5
Shatonska, Good point about the Moiseyus. It is easy to see some resemblance in the possible pronunciation of the names Moiseyus and Shiyo. And George Bent is aware of a connection of Moiseyus with a) Cheyenne b) Suhtai and last, but not the least to: c) Lakota/Dakota (Sioux) This is very interesting.
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