Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2013 9:59:12 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I'm new here and this is a great site! I was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me. I know that both Masai and the Apache Kid were at some time scouts. Were they active scouts when Geronimo surrendered at Embudos and more importantly were they present at Embudos  Thanks for any info anyone can provide. |
|
|
|
Post by dT on May 2, 2013 10:15:05 GMT -5
Big Foot Masai may have been the greatest Chiricahua warrior :-)
That's a controversial statement. But let's see why it may be true.
I hope I have got my facts straight - if I am wrong please correct me.
One of the Chiricahua's ... and I thought it was Masai ... was the person who escaped from the train going to Florida, then made it back home on foot over 1,000 miles. That was an awesome escape attempt - one of the world's great escapes. It just doesn't get much press.
Later Masai disappeared at the Chiricahua Monument after being caught trying to steal a horse from a local ranch. I'm not sure that there are any reports about what happened to him since that time.
Where did he go?
Did he just finish off his life as a "bronco Apache" in the wild??
If anyone has more info, please contribute.
dT
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on May 2, 2013 16:46:21 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I'm new here and this is a great site! I was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me. I know that both Masai and the Apache Kid were at some time scouts. Were they active scouts when Geronimo surrendered at Embudos and more importantly were they present at Embudos Thanks for any info anyone can provide. Welcome redpaint! Kid could be a scout in Geronimo campaign and Embudos. Massai was not, because Chiricahua scouts were not represented there. And its not on the list of scouts 1886. |
|
|
|
Post by cinemo on May 3, 2013 9:30:36 GMT -5
Massai was enlisted as a scout ( for the last time ) by Marion Maus at Fort Apache on November 7, in 1885, and was discharged on May 6, in 1886
For a biography regarding Apache Kid and Massai see the books by Dan L. Thrapp :
Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography, Volume 1 : A – F ( Apache Kid )
Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography , : G – O ( Massai )
Additional, it seems to be lesser known, Massai escaped from the prisoners train together with Gray Lizard, his Tonkawa friend. While the train journey to Florida, Massai and Gray Lizard wore red handkerchiefs around their heads. There was a rumor in the train, that both men, that had red handkerchiefs, would be hanged, when they arrive in Florida. This rumor was the reason for the escape.
Greetings from Germany - cinemo
|
|
|
|
Post by dT on May 3, 2013 22:00:21 GMT -5
cinema - thanks for adding those details. I had not heard about the red bandanas and why Massai escaped. His escape and trek on foot back to his homelands in southern Arizona counts as one of the truly great stories of human escape. It is a pity that he did not write a book, or tell the story, before he died.
It seems that Maasai lived as a fugitive for the rest of his life. Maybe his family had died, or perhaps they were also transported to Florida. Perhaps there was no reason for him to ever come into contact with society again - when so many had perished or were taken prisoner. So he must have finished his life as a free man in the mountains of AZ and Mexico. I would not be surprised if more is known about him as stories amongst the Chiricahua today - but is not discussed in public.
For all these reasons he must be counted as one of the great Chiricahua warriors.
dT
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on May 3, 2013 22:35:48 GMT -5
Maybe his family had died, or perhaps they were also transported to Florida. Massai had one wife in Exile - Nah-go-tsi-eh (1850 – 1908), later she was wife of Chino (1845 – 1907) and Stephen Kyzha. And one daughter - Viola Ziah (1873 – 1932) - later wife of Eugene Chihuahua. |
|
|
|
Post by dT on May 4, 2013 0:11:13 GMT -5
that must have been a huge sacrifice to him ... to know his wife and daughter were gone and he might never see them again. He must have thought about them very often - it's a sad thing.
dT
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on May 4, 2013 13:39:14 GMT -5
I don't now what he thought about his wife and daughter, but he captured Mescalero girl Zan-a-go-li-che (?) and had daughter Alberta Begay (June 8, 1903 – Oct 1, 1980) with.
|
|
|
|
Post by dT on May 6, 2013 9:50:10 GMT -5
Masai may not have felt that he had very much choice about getting a new wife. I wonder if Alberta Begay wrote any memoirs or notes about her father. Her insights about him would be very valuable from a cultural perspective.
dT
|
|
|
|
Post by dT on May 6, 2013 23:41:16 GMT -5
by the way ... if we look at the facts in the few lines that Naiches2 has given us we can se a few things. If Massai had his daughter in 1903 then probably he did not steal Za-na-go-li-che until some time in the 1890's. maybe the late 1890's. this means that Maasai might have wandered the mountains of Arizona and New Mexico for many years by himself (after his escape and return back home). And then at that time he realized that there were few Nde people left (if any) in the wild and he could not start a family - unless he took a girl from the reservation.
But it was bold for him to cross the great distance to the Mescalero Reservation - because he was a wanted man and would certainly have been captured or shot if anyone saw him. And then after taking a new wife they must have lived in the wild for several more years ... which is not an easy existence for a family alone. In fact it is a very hard existence. What a huge shock for Za-na-go-li-che !!
This is where I have a problem with the books written about history. Because they just say "Oh Massai did this. And then he did that." In a very matter of fact way. But they have NO explanation for how he could possibly have accomplished these things ... how did he survive alone for so long ... how did he cross the great distances on foot ... how did he raise a family alone ...? These were mighty efforts since he was living in a land that was entirely hostile to him. So much knowledge from the old Chiricahua's has been lost.
dT
|
|
|
|
Post by gregor on May 7, 2013 12:24:43 GMT -5
Hi from Germany,
you can read Alberta Begay's story in Eve Ball's Indeh: An Apache Odyssey, starting on page 248. From page 255 to the end of this chapter she relates her parents history.
Gregor
|
|
|
|
Post by dT on May 7, 2013 15:26:48 GMT -5
gregor - thank you. I will definitely look it up :-)
dT
|
|
|
|
Post by Mithlo on May 8, 2013 12:31:11 GMT -5
Also....Massai and Nah-go-tsi-eh had a son, Alphonso Eolista (born in 1877), full brother of Viola. Both brother and sister entered Carlisle on April 30 1887 and returned to our people here at Fort Sill in 1895. Eolista only stayed a short time here then moved back east to the New York-Penn. area. He never married nor had any children and died and buried there in 1903. Also....Massai was not Chiricahua, he was Warm Springs......Nah-go-tsi-eh was Chiricahua. Maybe his family had died, or perhaps they were also transported to Florida. Massai had one wife in Exile - Nah-go-tsi-eh (1850 – 1908), later she was wife of Chino (1845 – 1907) and Stephen Kyzha. And one daughter - Viola Ziah (1873 – 1932) - later wife of Eugene Chihuahua. |
|
|
|
Post by dT on May 8, 2013 14:11:50 GMT -5
mithlo ... thanks very much for the correction.
and when I said the following remark ... "So much knowledge from the old Chiricahua's has been lost" I really meant knowledge belonging to the Chiricahua's, Warm Springs, White Mountain, ... all the Apache bands really. I hope that I am actually wrong about this - and that some Nde people have kept some of this old knowledge alive. Not just knowledge about culture and religion - but the old ways of travel, survival and hunting. It does not matter if this knowledge is kept as secrets within the tribe and not shared with the outside world. That is understandable. I just hope that someone still knows some of those old ways :-)
dT
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on May 11, 2013 15:43:04 GMT -5
Also....Massai and Nah-go-tsi-eh had a son, Alphonso Eolista (born in 1877), full brother of Viola. Both brother and sister entered Carlisle on April 30 1887 and returned to our people here at Fort Sill in 1895. Eolista only stayed a short time here then moved back east to the New York-Penn. area. He never married nor had any children and died and buried there in 1903. Also....Massai was not Chiricahua, he was Warm Springs......Nah-go-tsi-eh was Chiricahua. Massai had one wife in Exile - Nah-go-tsi-eh (1850 – 1908), later she was wife of Chino (1845 – 1907) and Stephen Kyzha. And one daughter - Viola Ziah (1873 – 1932) - later wife of Eugene Chihuahua. I found my mistake in my 'List 500' about born date for Massai - 1874. Possibly 1854??? |
|
Thanks for any info anyone can provide.
