Coup Stick for Chiricahua's?

[dT]

I know that some Native American tribes had the custom of the coup stick - as a way of measuring courage during battle. The goal was to touch you enemy (alive) while in combat with the stick. However, I don't know if Chiricahua warriors had this custom. Does anyone know if the Chiticahua's used coup sticks ... or if they didn't - then did they have a different way of measuring courage in battle?

thanks,
dT

[xframe]

Hello dT,

I can't give you a source, but I read many times that Apache warriors did not use Coup Sticks or similar measurements. Their attack strategy many time is described as "hit & run or hide" strategy, simply to avoid contact with the enemy and unnecessarily loss of worriors. This ofc had to do with limited manpower compared to many tribes of the Plains.

[dT]

xframe ... no doubt you are right. It certainly makes sense for them to avoid coup sticks if they follow a hit-and-run strategy. But I wonder if this came about at the time of the white man, or was a tradition from earlier times? The Nde people must have known about the practices and customs of other Native American tribes - but they chose to avoid this one. Maybe they were also careful about what they carried - no objects that weighed too much, or added bulk. Perhaps this allowed them to travel faster on foot.

dT

[coeurrouge]

It was cultural and spiritual.

For plains warriors, die at war, it was an honor. The Cheyennes always said "that they prefer dieing young with all of their mental and physical capacity than old without theeth".

For the Nde when they fight, no matter how they can, they have to kill at war, they were more impeteous but tryied to not expose themselves too far. In opposite on raid, the objectif was stock. The better was to steal stock without saw by ennemies.

Apaches warriors are courageous but are more afraid of death because it meant let without support their families. Apaches though that became old was a sign of great people avoiding the traps of life.

The Mescaleros and the Jicarrillas, living in plain before the comanche knowned perhaps of the coup (french language ), but I don't think they used it.

The Chiricahuas and Western Apaches are mountain people, though they were separated from the plain culture most of the time.

[xframe]

dT

If you are more interested into Apache tactics at war I can recommand this book I recently bought and read:

Apache Tactics 1830-86 by Robert N. Watt from 2012

It's a very small book with some illustrations and maps.

[dT]

xframe ... thanks. I will get a hold of that book.
Best wishes to you on this day.

dT

[penjady]

Chiricahuas were and are not afraid of death! They had the power to foresee their own death and made appropriate plans. If it was to be, then it was. Even today, the older Chiricahuas face death in the face (cancer, etc.) without any use of medication. Like I said, if it is to be.. then it shall.

The second life is grand for us!

The older Apaches, when death was near, would sacrifice themselves so the band may continue!

That does not mean that they were foolish with war and tactics or attempt to stand in front of a cannon.

[dT]

penjady ... thank you. yes I understand your point. I think that form of courage goes with a greater belief - and confidence - that there is another world after this one.

if you talk to the older chiricahua's ... can you ask them if the warriors kept a reminder of the enemies they defeated. did they have keepsakes of those battles that were included in their own personal decorations - or did they just tell the incidents as stories later?

thanks, dT

[penjady]

Dec 10, 2012 21:33:27 GMT -5 dT said:

penjady ... thank you. yes I understand your point. I think that form of courage goes with a greater belief - and confidence - that there is another world after this one.

if you talk to the older chiricahua's ... can you ask them if the warriors kept a reminder of the enemies they defeated. did they have keepsakes of those battles that were included in their own personal decorations - or did they just tell the incidents as stories later?

thanks, dT

No reminders. War was out of necessity. If we needed to survive, things needed to happen. It is our belief that we don't talk about "bad" things if they happened to us or someone else.

To bring up "bad" things would bring us bad luck and allow the bad luck to continue. So to keep reminders was a big no-no.

So, fortunately or unfortunately, most of the war stories are long gone.

[dT]

Penjady ... interesting comments.

This brings up another issue that is somewhat related. How do Chiricahua's see the spirit world? Do they believe that good and bad spirits co-exist in that world ... is that a reason why "bad" things would not be discussed? What do Chiricahua's beleive happens to the spiritis of their enemies after a battle - if their enemies are killed? Do they believe that the spirits of all men will go on to live in peace, or that there are different destinations depending on how people lived their lives?

thanks,
dT

[dT]

Follow-up ... I have decided to move my question to a new thread.
See the thread titled "Spirit World of the Chiricahua".

thanks, dT

[jasper4]

no coup sticks needed and as with other tribes it was good to die young and in battle if one grows old then he will help others warriors with such as learning the 'war talk' which was used in battle, IE hands signs used by special forces in Nam to give orders without making sound. Raiding was a way of life and revenge for loss of kin and in war one is too kill the enemy and not go thru senseless tactics which end or increase odds of getting DEAD. POWER used for battle and to show others your POWER is used to earn standing within the band. In short better to kill and used steallth and live than to rush into useless death. Enjun

[jasper4]

Dec 10, 2012 21:00:16 GMT -5 penjady said:

Chiricahuas were and are not afraid of death! They had the power to foresee their own death and made appropriate plans. If it was to be, then it was. Even today, the older Chiricahuas face death in the face (cancer, etc.) without any use of medication. Like I said, if it is to be.. then it shall.

The second life is grand for us!

The older Apaches, when death was near, would sacrifice themselves so the band may continue!

That does not mean that they were foolish with war and tactics or attempt to stand in front of a cannon.

Correct

[coeurrouge]

Dec 10, 2012 21:00:16 GMT -5 penjady said:

Chiricahuas were and are not afraid of death! They had the power to foresee their own death and made appropriate plans. If it was to be, then it was. Even today, the older Chiricahuas face death in the face (cancer, etc.) without any use of medication. Like I said, if it is to be.. then it shall.

The second life is grand for us!

The older Apaches, when death was near, would sacrifice themselves so the band may continue!

That does not mean that they were foolish with war and tactics or attempt to stand in front of a cannon.

Sorry if I offensed some people , not my objective. I wanted to say that "Chiricahuas were more carefull of their life." than "afraid of death".

[dT]

"So, fortunately or unfortunately, most of the war stories are long gone."

Sadly that is a common problem with tribes and people who used oral tradition to keep their wisdom alive. When the tribe is broken down and scattered ... much that was known becomes lost. And that is a GREAT loss.

I got a hold of a copy of the book "Apache Tactics" by Robert Watt. It is a very good attempt to describe some of the ambush methods used by the Apache people during the wars. So I am not criticizing Mr. Watt in any way - he went to a good deal of trouble to piece together where battles were fought and how the Apaches positioned themselves. Yet also when I read this book I realize it is only telling part of the story - many aspects of the tactics are not included ... such as how the warriors were trained, how they communicated in battle, how they moved across the terrain, how they hid themselves, and so on.

So some things are known, and others get lost. It's a shame.

dT