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Post by Dietmar on Oct 3, 2012 6:05:58 GMT -5
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swa562
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by swa562 on Oct 6, 2012 20:12:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the photos. Some of those photos I have. But the quality of these photos that you posted are better. One problem I have in doing research is identifying the other Indian Scouts. I am not an expert on them but they did risk their life like everybody else who fought during the Apache Wars for 25 years.
I also have a problem with the amount of settlers that were killed, and the amount of soldiers that were killed. Nobody really knows and nobody is saying anything. I heard that there was over 2,000 Scouts in Arizona. Who knows how many there was throughout the United States. They also fought during the civil war because it was their land they were fighting for. So, there is a lot of research to cover. Thanks
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Post by kayitah on Oct 6, 2012 20:49:28 GMT -5
Those who have a name with a question mark behind I couldn't identify definitely, but at least Chato, Dutchy, Astoyeh, Coonie and, I suppose, Charlie can be confirmed by others on these boards Attachments:
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RomsD
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by RomsD on Dec 10, 2012 7:57:14 GMT -5
If i'm to read only one book on Mickey Free, have you folks one to recommend? Thanks :-)
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Post by kayitah on Dec 10, 2012 8:48:06 GMT -5
I would recommend Allan Radbourne's "Mickey Free: Apache captive, interpreter, and Indian Scout". Very informative and lots of details and names you will not find in any other book about Mickey. Radbourne has proven to be an exceptional researcher and an excellent writer, so basically anything written by him is highly recommendable.
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RomsD
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by RomsD on Dec 10, 2012 8:54:14 GMT -5
Thank you so much, Kayitah :-) ! Next thing I will do is to set Amazone to work. Christmas present for me self :-)
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Post by scout47 on Dec 22, 2013 10:19:46 GMT -5
There is an excellent book on Mickey Free, titled "Mickey Free, Apache Captive, Interpreter, and Indian Scout" By Allan Radbourne, Arizona Historical Society. Considered a definitive work!
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Post by Lightfoot on Oct 22, 2014 0:20:20 GMT -5
Read The Life of Tom Horn - Government Scout and Interpreter. Horn lived and fought with his as a fellow US Scout and later Chief of Scouts, naming Free as his First Sergeant. The book sheds light on the structure of the US Scouts at that time, what happened to scouts that went renegade (like Dandy Jim, etc) and the general nature of the Arizona Territory in and around San Carlos. I'm researching for a book right now and have found many valuable nuggets in Horn's book that I can draw connections to in history and the research of others. There is a lot of bias, sketchy facts and conjecture in all writing during the referenced time in history. I don't think anyone will ever know anything definitively. You must chose what you wish to believe based on what's available and some sound reasoning. The book I'm writing is for the Tactical Tracking Operations School as one of the Subject Matter Experts and lead instructors for the school. www.ttoscorp.com
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Post by waganari on Oct 22, 2014 14:04:52 GMT -5
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chi1
New Member
Posts: 39
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Post by chi1 on Oct 23, 2014 13:42:09 GMT -5
A very peculiar eyes, would be gray or light color, perhaps a wound in one eye? This would be the apache that travel to Washintong and a doctor install a glass eye which surprised many? or some affectation of hyperthyroidism?
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Post by jasper4 on Oct 27, 2014 14:43:07 GMT -5
Here are some additional infos on Mickey Free: Mickey Free was born in Santa Cruz, Sonora, about 1847, the son of Jesusa Martínez and Santiago Tellez. Tellez was reputed to be Irish, or part Irish. Tellez died when Mickey was just a child, and Jesusa lived with John Ward in the Sonoita Valley of Arizona. On 27 January 1861 Mickey was stolen by Pinal Apaches, and as a result, a series of tragic events occurred. When Carleton's California Volunteers arrived in Arizona they learned of the capture of Mickey, and it was decided that they should try to retrieve him. Second Lieutenant George Bascom was in charge of the unit to carry this out. The Chiricahua Apache chief Cochise was blamed for the incident, and he was captured. Nevertheless, Cochise escaped, and this precipitated the killing of some of Cochise's men. Of course, Cochise became angry and, basically, a war resulted between Americans and Cochise. In the meantime, Mickey was freed and adopted by Nayundiie, a Western White Mountain Apache at San Carlos. Mickey's foster brother was the same man who was known as the famous Indian Scout, John Rope. John Rope in his old age was one of the principal informants of the anthropologist Grenville Goodwin. (There are many descendants of Rope today living on the San Carlos Reservation.) In 1872 Mickey became a sergeant among the scouts. He served until July 1893, often participating in expeditions against Geronimo. He was particular effective in General Crook's 1883 expedition into the Sierra Madre. Mickey was greatly feared by many, and he was often considered to be a man who enjoyed killing. Dan Thrapp, famous southwestern historian, however, believes that Mickey was never actually known to have killed anyone. Nevertheless, after his days as a scout Mickey retired to the White Mountain Reservation, where he married and had children (many of his descendants still live on that reservation). Mickey died in the summer of 1915 among his people near Whiteriver. An interesting book to read about Mickey Free is: Mickey Free: Manhunter by A. Kinney Griffith. It must be understood, however, that Griffith makes numerous errors, and also makes bogus claims in his book. Nevertheless, the final portion of Griffith's book does have some interesting, accurate information. As a child Griffith became acquainted with Mickey and was greatly impressed with him. It is unfortunate that Griffith's book is badly flawed about the early life of Mickey. Source: zybtarizona.com/free.htmThis is also interesting : truewest.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-childhood-of-mickey-free
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Post by dT on Nov 5, 2014 18:42:59 GMT -5
jASPER 4 - THANKS FOR SHARING. It puts some of Mickey Free's life into a more positive view. These are actually the first positive words I have jeard about him. As you know, that 1883 expedition into the Sierra Madre was one of the turning points against the remaining Nde (Apache) traditonal warriors. It is interesting that people believe that Mickey made a substantial contribution. I am guessing that his tracking skills must have been very good.
dT
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Post by dT on Nov 5, 2014 18:52:34 GMT -5
Lightfoot ... your subject is very worthwhile. It is a shame (actually more like a tragedy) that the great tracking skills that were accumulated during the Apache Wars by a number of participants ... were subsequently lost when the Nde (Apaches) were interred in Florida. Yes, it is fair to say that the Apache Scouts had some excellent trackers ... hence their success in expeditions such as the 1883 pursuit into the Sierra Madre. No doubt Tom Horn did also acquire some excellent skills himself when he participated in those field maneuvers.
But it is more fair to say that the so called "renegades", including Geronimo and the warriors who supported him, were probably the greatest masters at the art of "tracking and disappearing" into the Arizona wilderness. Many of the things that they knew ... will probably never be known. Although, if someone were to spend a whole lifetime in Arizona by living off the land and hunting ... much would be learned.
Some people believe that Geronimo had "special powers". That is open to lengthy debate. What is undoubtedly true - is that Geronimo's warriors were exceptionally good in the wilderness, had great endurance, and a very high level of discipline and commitment. Therefore, it is sometimes recorded that Geronimo would tell his own people ... "tomorrow some cattle will come by this place ... in the morning". And since it was unclear how he could have known this, his own people assumed some type of mystical power. But in reality, Geronimo had a sophisticated system of surveillance operating, with some close knit warriors who observed, then ran great distances and reported back to him. This system was one of the big reasons why he avoided capture for such a long time (and finally was coerced into surrender because of dwindling resources and the fact that his best warriors and surveillance "agents" gave up the fight).
Good luck on your book.
dT
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Post by Mithlo on Nov 5, 2014 19:37:36 GMT -5
Hey Everyone!!!! Kayitah..... have a question for you..in the group photo of scouts you say there are men such as Chatto, Dutchy, Astoyeh, Coonie, Mickey Free and Charlie.......But which one do you (or anyone else) think is Charlie?? All my life have heard very interesting stories bout this man and his many travel's (some to far-off places). Also....it is said that Sundayman is in the photo.....so which one is he??
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Post by kayitah on Nov 15, 2014 11:09:31 GMT -5
Hey Everyone!!!! Kayitah..... have a question for you..in the group photo of scouts you say there are men such as Chatto, Dutchy, Astoyeh, Coonie, Mickey Free and Charlie.......But which one do you (or anyone else) think is Charlie?? All my life have heard very interesting stories bout this man and his many travel's (some to far-off places). Also....it is said that Sundayman is in the photo.....so which one is he?? Not sure whether Tsedekizen is in the photo (btw it was taken in July, 1885, at El Paso TX). Among others, Britton Davis' Chiricahua scouts at the time also included Jon-stia (enl. Jan. 1 '85), Das-en-de (enl. Jan. 1 '85), Tuzonne (enl. Apr. 1 '85), José First (enl. March 17 '85), Ramon (enl. March 13 '85), Ah-ga-doh (enl. March 13 '85), Feliz (enl. March 10 '85), Ba-not-chi-ze (enl. Jan. 1 '85), and Pe-de-o-chil-esh (enl. March 20 '85). Pe-de-o-chil-esh held the rank of a sergeant, so it probably wasn't his first duty as a scout. Unfortunately, I didn't find any other entries under that name. Does anyone know who he was? As always, this is how the different photos match-up IMO, seen through my eyes, and I'd welcome differing opinions and an interesting discussion. Benjamin Astoyeh (enl. Apr. 1 '85) No'stle (Knox Nostlin) (enl. Apr. 1 '85) No-tolch (No'talq) (enl. Jan. 1 '85) William Coonie (enl. Jan. 1 '85) Charles Martine (enlisted as Es-kin-e-la-ta Apr. 1 '85 according to Ms. Alicia Delgadillo, 'From Fort Marion to Fort Sill') Charlie (As-ka-do-dil-ges) (enlistment seems to be missing from register, but Britton Davis stated that Charlie was among his scouts in May, 1885 - see Sweeney 'Cochise to Geronimo' p.636 no. 56) Gonaltsis (Patricio) (enl. Apr. 1 '85) I would like to point out that this is the pair I am least convinced about myself; I was torn whether to post it but in the end decided to include it since all of them are only suggestions anyway. Martin Kayitah (enl. March 20 '85) Fritz Dutchy (enl. March 13 '85)
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