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Post by cinemo on Jul 2, 2016 13:52:24 GMT -5
Regarding Herman Lehman, there are some inconsistencies in his time of captivity. He was captured by two Lipans , but we have no proof by which tribe he remained. I agree with tkavanagh, Lehman was
not among the Comanches before 1877.
Concerning mutual raids between Chiricahuas and Comanches around 1850 and later, I think there were some very occasionally raids. Raids, that were not recorded .
But, remember the brave woman Gouyen. Her first husband was killed in a Comanche raid. She tracked and killed the Comanche who scalped her husband …
cinemo
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Cochise
Jul 2, 2016 18:36:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 18:36:02 GMT -5
Sorry Cinemo, You can ignore reallity all you want..I am holding in my hand"9Years among the Indians 1870-1879" by Herman Lehmann Forwarded by Dale Geise' Professor Emeritus of History at Western New Mexico University. So you and this tkavanagh know more than Professor Geise who spent his life in Apacheria and has several books published? I don't think you know more than Professor Geise, and this Kavanagh person doesn't either. I had lunch with Professor Geise fairly recently, and he has first hand knowledge of this subject, you don't. Have you or this Kavanagh person actually met Professor Geise? Internet knowledge is one thing, personal first-hand knowledge is something totally different
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Post by tkavanagh on Jul 2, 2016 19:14:38 GMT -5
Mr RedPaint, Since you apparently do not know me, let me introduce myself. I am sitting in the heart of Comancheria right now, continuing what has been my life's work for the last 46 years, the Numunuu. I have a PhD from the University of New Mexico, and have published three books, and numerous articles on the Comanches, including the Smithsonian's Handbook of North American Indians. I have been the Consulting Anthropologist for the Comanche Nation and the Comanche Nation College. I have been a member of the Tuepukunuu, the Comanche Little Pony Society, since 1972. I know whereof I write. Your call.
tk Thomas Kavanagh, PhD
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Cochise
Jul 3, 2016 12:46:54 GMT -5
Post by Dietmar on Jul 3, 2016 12:46:54 GMT -5
tk,
I´m sure you did some research on Herman Lehman. I would be grateful if you could share some more of your conclusions.
Of course many of us have read "Nine years among the Indians". A few weeks ago a documentary (obviously not very accurate) was broadcasted on German TV. Remember he was of German ancestry.
And btw, what do you think about Scott Zesch´s "The Captured: A True Story of Abduction by Indians on the Texas Frontier", who wrote a lot about captive children of Comanches, from the viewpoint of a descendant of one of these captives?
Greetings
Dietmar
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Cochise
Jul 3, 2016 17:49:32 GMT -5
Post by tkavanagh on Jul 3, 2016 17:49:32 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar: I am in the midst of a critical examination of the so-called "Battle of Yellow House Canyon," which, of necessity, involves a critical look at Lehmann, not only his two books, but also his testimony in Willis Glenn's (one of the buffalo hunters) depredation case, and several narratives which Glenn reproduces in his unpublished memoirs (on microfilm at U Texas El Paso). My immediate conclusion: there were no Comanches at Yellow House. Unidentified Apaches, yes; Herman Lehmann, no. To be blunt,I find Lehmann almost totally untrustworthy.[There is a comment in William Chebatah's _Chevato_ to the effect that most Comanches felt/feel that he "exaggerated".) For example, in the relevant part of _Nine Years_, alleged to "corroborate" John Cook's _Border and Buffalo_ , (p 172)I find it to be copied almost word for word directly from Cook (p.285). [That is, not "corroboration," but "plagiarism"]
I cannot identify any of the Comanche names his gives in the text (except of course Quanah).
I like Zesch's book (I am cited in it); he has been very helpful in my current research. I do feel he was not critical enough about Lehmann.
Yes, Lehmann was German; according to Glenn, he spoke English with a German accent.[From Glenn: "I rember, dat vas me, I have got dat ball in me hip now, us Injuns always thought dat youse was soldiers, but now I know that you vas buffalo hunters by them remarks..." ]
From 102F (38.8C), Oklahoma, tk
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Post by coeurrouge on Jul 4, 2016 15:41:04 GMT -5
Hello,
Misters, remember that it was a Cochise's thread not Comanche one. Please focus on Cochise, his family and his People here.
Redpaint, I do not know very much about Comanche but I can say this. As much I could learn and understand about Chiricahua from France is those things: 1) Before 1830, maybe before 1840, only Chihenne (maybe a little of the Bedonkohe) people, with their close relationship with Mescaleros, and the Nednis, living much of the time in Chihuahua State of Mexico, met certainly Comanches (in war or in peace, I guess both of them). 2 ) I never read that Cochise was hurted by a comanche weapon. It may could be happened but I am not convinced. 3) Be carefful from some books. ex : Stanley Vestal did a hudge job on research of sitting Bull with his interviews of the Hunkpapa's nephew, BUT his biography of Sitting Bull have to be read much as a romantic and interresting story than an Historic Book.
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Cochise
Jul 4, 2016 19:21:40 GMT -5
Post by tkavanagh on Jul 4, 2016 19:21:40 GMT -5
coeurrouge: I'm well aware of the subject of this thread. I was merely commenting on the citation of Schlesier and Lehmann when someone called me out on my creds, to which I responded. Sorry for the diversion. I'll go back to lurking.
tk
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Cochise
Jul 6, 2016 16:38:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 16:38:44 GMT -5
I'm calling you out on your Creds tcavanaugh. Go for it!!!!
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Cochise
Jul 13, 2016 2:41:48 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Jul 13, 2016 2:41:48 GMT -5
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Cochise
Jul 13, 2016 17:23:16 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 17:23:16 GMT -5
ouroboros, Thank you my friend. So you posted again . Any Europeans or Russians or Casino Indians want to respond? I have already!!
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Cochise
Jul 13, 2016 19:00:48 GMT -5
Post by chicheman on Jul 13, 2016 19:00:48 GMT -5
thanks ouroboros, for posting the mention of Comanche arrow wound again.
Redpaint, yep here´s one European, me. What´s the Intention of your words, want to offend ? After all, where´s the historical source of that statement,a Comanche arrow wounding Cochise. Having any more than this single Statement without giving any source ? Any Nde or White Eyes sources available ? I would be really interested to learn more about that incident, when Cochise fought with Comanches and received this arrow wound. And this is a friendly request,no Intention of mine to argue with you, just want to learn as I couldn´t find out anything. Understand ? Thanks for what you share. In a good way, chicheman
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Post by cinemo on Jul 21, 2016 11:21:11 GMT -5
The physical appearance of Cochise
Around 1870 , seemingly there was a widespred estimation by army officers and government officials, that Cochise was used up and even crippled .
General Howard described Cochise after his meeting in 1872 :
"As I took his hand I remember my impression. A man fully six feet in height, well proportioned, large, dark eyes, face slightly painted with vermillion, unmistakably an Indian; hair straight and black, with a few silver threads, touching his coat collar behind....“
Howard's description differs little from that given by Joseph Alton Sladen .
Remarkable is the description of Cochise by Captain Joseph Haskell, who was among General Howard's party in 1872. Haskell later wrote :
"The reports that we have had of Cochise have always given us the understanding that he is old, used up, crippled from wounds and exposure, and of no account whatever as a leader or a chief. How mistaken we were. We met Cochise and 13 of his captains, and Cochise is as different from the others of his tribe, as far as we saw, as black is from white. When standing straight he is said to be exactly six feet tall. I took a good look at him and made up my mind that he was only five feet ten inches. He is powerful, exceedingly well built, bright, intelligent countenance, and as fine an Indian as I ever laid my eyes on."
I would like to emphasize this excerpt :
"The reports that we have had of Cochise have always given us the understanding that he is old, used up, crippled from wounds and exposure, and of no account whatever as a leader or a chief. How mistaken we were....“
After his visit of Cochise in late november, 1872, Governeur Safford wrote :
Excerpt: „ He was often reported to be at different points at the same time, frequently reported dead, and generally believed to be crippled for life...“
In all descriptions above there is not a single hint, that Cochise was impaired with a slight stoop
cinemo
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Post by jasper4 on Sept 16, 2016 13:34:34 GMT -5
Mr RedPaint, Since you apparently do not know me, let me introduce myself. I am sitting in the heart of Comancheria right now, continuing what has been my life's work for the last 46 years, the Numunuu. I have a PhD from the University of New Mexico, and have published three books, and numerous articles on the Comanches, including the Smithsonian's Handbook of North American Indians. I have been the Consulting Anthropologist for the Comanche Nation and the Comanche Nation College. I have been a member of the Tuepukunuu, the Comanche Little Pony Society, since 1972. I know whereof I write. Your call. tk Thomas Kavanagh, PhD this diatribe by redpaint has become like a litany on comanches and or some pow gringo. I say this I am old enough to remember being told via oral history or tales of the old ones. As for redpaint I have no ill or good will towards other than to say again quit being a Golinka. Term apaches can and has been used to describe many bands or clans. As for why I replied to this post well I say have knowledge of your work.
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Post by jasper4 on Sept 16, 2016 13:44:08 GMT -5
PS Jasper, I'm not twisted against Apaches. Just got my original Photo of Mangus (Wittick photo) that I bought at Auction recently. Believe it or not, I am 100% behind Apache, and have actually been a health care provider for Apaches , Navahoes, and "casino Indians" near Tucson. And I have actually been to Ojo Caliente. Have a good day. I am not trying to be your enemy. redpaint which picture of mangas you mean Charles Mangas if not and mean the father you been taken as no photo of Dasodahae was ever taken. Redpaint books written bt gringos are not perfect or many tales by many people have been written by good meaning folks yet they can be WRONG. As for being my enemy never thought as such, just know by listening when I was young to the old ones and having Elders such as Elybs Hugar, Ruey Darrow, Silas Cochise, and my aunt Mildred Cleghorn. No offense intended or taken thus do continue yet mellow out.
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Cochise
Sept 16, 2016 17:06:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 17:06:06 GMT -5
Hi Jasper, The photo I have is of Mangus, not his father, there are no known photos of his father. Thank you for writing, and I am sure you should keep contributing here. I like your posts, you speak your mind, and I respect you for that. Could you tell us about Mildred Cleghorn? Many Thanks!!! Redpaint
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