Traditional Apache Moccasins .. Full Length ..

[Deleted]

Traditional Apache Moccasins . . .
Can anyone ' give me directions .. on how to make these
They are usually made Thigh High ' but are mostly worn folded down a few times to a Calf High.
I would dearly ' love to find someone who can help teach me to make them.
Thankyou ' so much for your time .

Attachments:

[kayitah]

Hi my friend, I would help you but I've been looking for instructions on how to make them for a long time, too. Would be awesome if anyone could help...

[Deleted]

Hello Kayitah ..
Thankyou ' so much for at least replying , that says alot of you. I did find someone who has just published an Apache Boots moccasin Pattern on the net , but they are the point toe style , and the stitching of the sole to the upper is does differently ' to the chiricahua style toe guard mox . So im not sure how true this pattern is to the Chiricahua toe guard style as in the pic , and as to how the pattern is made .. but maybe it will give you hints as to how they are made
www.willghormley-maker.com/ApacheBootPattern.html
If you click on the link at the left hand side of the pic of the boots and scroll down .. it gives you directions and also pix of the proceedure to make them. But i think they look more like a Mescalero style , and the way they are made . . it is interesting though. Thankyou again for your reply ' and hopefully '' some apache moccasin makers will come and help us . All the best ,

[wrolf]

I don't know where you are located, but there are some Tandy Leather Shops still around, and theyu might be able to help you with a patern. My other suggestion to you is try Navajo Mocassins, for a patter, unless there is a specific reason you want the Apache. Good Luck, I get to tan my first Deer hide this spring, when we stay warm enough to take the whole thing out of the freezer, long story.

[Deleted]

Hello Wolf.

Im in England and there is a tandy Store here in the UK but their stock here is very limited .. not much choice in leather. Their Elk they only have white & Gold instock. Their Deerskin is only thin garment clothing weight and theyre pretty expensive too. They have a few moccasin patterns but theyre just commercial patterns. Apache Moccasins are a One Piece Elkskin Upper and only the Sole is separate from the top. I have tried to find some other southwest tribal moccasin makers as the sewing of the sole to the upper like the Navajo ' is the same , done similar to the Apache way.. except the Navajo Sole comes up around the foot about 1 inch all the way around the foot. The Apache sole doesnt come up that hifh around the foot .. but the hidden seam ' sewing on of the sole to the upper is done the same. I know how the stitching on of the sole to the upper is done .. just need help ' advice drawing out the pattern for the upper ' so it fits across the arch of the foot and comes around the back of the heel to meet on the insideof the foot. I know the Leg is sewn all the way up ' from top of the leg to the bottom .. this is the first step of making apache moccasins , and then you sew on the soles.
I have been contacting Several Apaches on Facebook and other websites on the internet for the past several years now , but im afraid their not very helpfull , not very friendly and dont seem to want to speak to outsiders. One day i sent messages to 'seven' different apaches .. not one of them replied to me. Then about 2-3 months later i got 2 replies , one said she knew someone who could help and asked for my name & address. That was before Christmas and ive not heard anything from them since .. it is now June. It seems to me that the only time the apache people want to speak to outsiders non apaches is if your Paying '' them to make something for you like moccasins. None seem to have bank accounts so you have to send them International Money Orders , they will keep chatting to you upto them getting your cheque .. but after that ' as soon as they get your money , they lose interest ' and you have to keep pestering them to get the moccasins you have paid them in full to make for you.
Please believe me when i say " It makes me very sad to say this , but i have been interested in the apache people all my life since i was a child , I am now 45 yrs old and the way i have been treated by them is a disgrace and a great let down to me " I have been ripped off by a woman at mescalero called clar eyelash , whom i paid in full to make some beaded moccasins for , her website store closed after she got my payment , she said she was leaving her job , going back to college , her sister was getting married .. all these things and i never got my moccasins. I contacted Mrs Bessie Bacca , clerk of the court asking for the paperwork to take her to court , i wrote het twice .. never got the paperwork or a reply. I wrote the tribal president mr Chino ..he said he couldnt get involved as it was a civil matter , but sent my letter to her asking her to sort it. She emailed me to say she had sent them in the October tht year and had a signature tht wasnt ledgeable ' CRAP '' she never made them .. never sent them. I paid her $438 to make , bead & post them to me. She even claimed she would refund me .. i never saw a penny from her.
So i wouldnt advise anyone to have any dealings with any apaches .. I cant trust any of them now . and it makes me very sad to say that after spending my life being interested in a people that havent even got the manners to reply to any of my messages. I have lost track of how many apaches i have sent messages to asking for help making the moccasins .. none of them bother to reply , and its obvious they dont want any outsiders to learn how to make their moccasins. They dont mind knowing all our secrets' but they dont want to share anything. Ive just come to the conclusion now that theyre not very friendly people at all ... Its very sad really!

But Thankyou so much for replying to me , and trying to help .. Yatahai do some good moccasin Patterns , with the turned up sole. And their is the Plains Boot Moccasin Pattern .. none of which have the One Piece Upper , but i suppose you could adjust the patterns to a one piece upper and just add the toe guard at the toes. Actually ' Yatahai make some softsole moccasins like the apache with the toe guard , but she makes them as a wrap around style , and also as a front laced style. She makes beautifull moccasins , have a look.

Thankyou very much again , and take good care

[kayitah]

Hello everyone,

for whoever is interested in buying Apache crafts, I can recommend getting in contact with Herb Stevens, director of the San Carlos Apache Culture Center. He is a very open-minded and honest man, and very lighthearted. He is Tonto Apache and a true expert at traditional Apache crafts - and lots more. You can find out more about him using google. He even does moccasin workshops, see here:

sarweb.org/?iarc_seminar_moccasin_seminar


I also know someone on Ebay who makes them, send me a PM if you want a link to the store there.

[Deleted]

Kayitah '
I did contact Mr Stevens a few yrs ago and was gonna get him to make me some moccasins , but my Bank advised me against it as I wouldnt be able to claim my money back after sending an international Money Order as payment. At the time , I also asked mr Stevens if I would be allowed to attend one of his Moccasin Making Classes ? as im not Apache , Im English living in England .. He replied " Im sorry ' but i cannot teach Non Tribal " .. meaning he only teaches Apache people how to make their Moccasins. He said " You might make a Pattern from it and put it on the Internet " ... he also tried to tell me ' that there is a Patent ' on the Apache Moccasin pattern , which i find very difficult to believe. He is on the San Carlos reservation.

I also contacted some apaches on Ebay.com to see how much they charge for a pair of Plain unbeaded moccasins .. at first they were charging me $250 OK' fair enough tht is about the price they are usually , but the lady i spoke to wasnt sure and said she would have to contact the lady that makes them for a quote ... The next day , i got a message from her on ebay to say tht the price has gone up' from $250 - about $700 .. due to their admin costs ... ? I was in complete shock ! and told her there is no ' way ' tht i am paying $700 for a pair of moccasins. I think they thought because i am English they would try to Triple the price and make some money out of me , but i wasnt falling for it and told them so too. They were on the San Carlos reservation supposedly working as a native crafts group of crafters.
What i am saying to you ' is the complete truth .. I wouldnt lie about that.

[kabuk9140]

www.willghormley-maker.com/ApacheBootPattern.html try this

[Deleted]

Hey Kabuk

Thank you for the link you posted. Its a great link that shows how to make the Point Toe Style. Mr Ghormley stitches on the soles differently to how the ' Chiricahua ' round toe guard style are made. He goes through the edge of the sole to sew them to the upper.
Chiricahua round toe ' .. they stitch on the soles just on the ' Inside Flat ' Part of the sole .. this way the stitches are hidden and also protected from damage. But I think the Chiricahua way , is quicker .. as the stitches can be made wider between each stitch. Although I had a pair I got off Ebay and the stitching on of the soles was done with tiny closer stitches .. so I guess its upto the maker as to how close they want to do the stitches. But I suppose the closer the stitches .. the more protected n hidden they will be.
But Mr Ghormley makes good Moccasins. They are very well made and look great' I might try his way sometime. I have seen close up pics of a pair of Moccasins on the net , and they look to be made exactly the same way as he has made his in regards to sewing on the sole.

media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/10122/10854438_5.jpg?v=8CE05EC46CA4360
p1.la-img.com/5/25622/9469220_4_l.jpg
www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9469220

Although the mocs in the Links above are a wrap around short style .. the soles are sewn on the same way as Mr Ghormleys Knee Hi Style. Im not sure which tribe these mocs are ? Mescalero n Jicarilla Men wore the more Plains Indian Style - Ankle hi Mocs.

But Thank You ' very much for the link Kabuk. I really appreciate you taking the time to post the link for me , it means a lot to get replies from People and im greatfull for to all who try to help.

Many Thanks !

[truthful.]

i am a Cibecue Apache from the White Mountain Apache Tribe. and even if this is an old conversation, i am wondering why you want our moccasins when you yourself don't even trust us as a people? and for all honesty, to get a pair of moccasins, you don't try to make them yourself, or have someone try to make it for you over the internet. you go to a person who is respected, and who is known well. plus, who are you to call yourself a White Apache? if an Apache's blood does not flow through your veins than you are not an Apache.

[ellich]

why did SOME NATIVE IN WAR CLIMENTS WEAR HIGHER KNEE MONASON?   AND WHAT WAS THE HEAD BAND THEY WORE  ?  WAS THIS FOR A READSON/

[dT]

ellich - perhaps some Nde can answer with more speicific reasons. But most likely the reason for the length of the moccasins was practical. Apaches are a very practical people! Take a look at all those plants growing in Arizona ... many have sharp thorns. Those thorns can easily tear your feet and legs. So the higher moccasins offer better protection ... I think that is probably the reason. Keep in mind that Apaches were excellent runners - capable of running very long distances. So if you are running across miles and miles of desert land, it is very easy to accidentally brush against sharp thorns. The moccasins offer protection against that.

For People Making Moccasins:
If you look at the answer from "Truthful Guest" above - he is making a good point. Why would somebody copy Nde moccasins and then claim to sell them as "Apache moccasins"? Clearly they are not Apache ... if not made by Apaches. So why do this? It is wrong. Therefore, if you want to make your own moccasins, short or long, you can do it. Just dont label them as Apache crafts, or sell them in this way. You can call them your own moccasins if you like ... just be truthful about what you do. There is nothing stopping anybody from being resourceful - just live in TRUTH!! That's all.

Finally ... think about it. Moccasins were made for a reason. They offered protection to the feet. If Apaches were running long distances, sooner or later those moccasins would get holes or torn. So the real Apache warriors were excellent at FIXING their moccasins in a short period of time - and then running in them again the next day. This requires a good deal of experience, because you dont have many tools for fixing leather when you are on the trail. Yet they accomplished this task very well! So the END RESULT of having the moccasins is not just that somebody had the possession of a pair of nice-looking shoes ... it is the ability to make them, fix them, and make new ones when they are gone. All done efficiently, and not wasting valuable skin. It requires knowledge and practice, and that is why we should respect those who follow this WAY.

all the best,
dT

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2014 16:05:45 GMT -5 truthful. said:

i am a Cibecue Apache from the White Mountain Apache Tribe. and even if this is an old conversation, i am wondering why you want our moccasins when you yourself don't even trust us as a people? and for all honesty, to get a pair of moccasins, you don't try to make them yourself, or have someone try to make it for you over the internet. you go to a person who is respected, and who is known well. plus, who are you to call yourself a White Apache? if an Apache's blood does not flow through your veins than you are not an Apache.

' Truthfull ..

You obviously haven't read my post properly , and taken in what I was saying or maybe you don't want to.
As I said before .. None of the Apaches I contacted would even have the good manners to reply to any of my emails , so how do you deal with them when they don't even reply ?
I mean , I sent emails to ' seven ' Apaches in one day , only 2 replied and that was about 3 or more months later. One lady asked for my name and address saying she knew someone who would help me .. I never heard from her again. The other young guy actually makes them and promised he would show me how they are made .. but again a year later and still nothing from him. He ignores my facebook msgs .. How do I deal with people that don't speak and don't reply ?

The guy that runs the san carlos Cultural center told me he couldn't teach me as he cannot teach non tribal people how to make them , Yet I have seen something on the net the other day it was a newspaper article saying that hes teaching moccasin making and other crafts to anyone even non indian people. It looks like its an old article but he obviously looks to have been teaching non indian people back then , but later changed his mind.

Again .. If you read what I said correctly ' you will see that I was ripped off by the woman at Mescalero $438 for a beaded pair of traditional moccasins. She claimed she sent them but I never received them in the post. She said she had a receipt from the post office to show she sent them , I never saw it. She claimed she had a copy signature to say someone signed for them but it wasn't ledgeable Then said she would refund me for them out of her own pocket .. I never saw a penny from her and she completely ignored every email I sent her afterwards , I tried phoning her .. never any answer only an answerphone probly so she wouldn't have to speak to me. And I now know that apache beaded moccasins are only about $340 -350 for a beaded pair. And you wonder why I find it difficult to trust apaches ? Really None of them seem to have a Bank Account to take payments either .. what do I do ? ...
Another apache man tried to do the same to me .. so can you blame me. If you are as honest as you claim to be , can you seriously blame me .. and my name is just a name I chose for this website because of my interest in the apache people from when I was a child , but im now very disappointed by them because they don't even reply to me. Everyone should know and least have the good manners to reply to someone , it doesn't hurt does it. And you use the name Truthfully ''' but how do any of us on here know if you are truthfull or not ? Its just childish to say I cant use white apache as a name on a website for heavens sake. Im entitled to call myself whatever I like just the same as you. A lot of apaches these days use English surnames .. so your contradicting yourself there. You only have to look on facebook to see them all.
I think you just sound miffed' because you don't want me to find out how theyre made. You don't want any non apaches to know how theyre made. You all use computers and modern technology , if we were to have your attitude of not sharing you would all still be living in the wickiup with no computers , electricity .. or facebook.
And its obvious you've gotten one of your little friends to comment below too. Very childish im afraid.

Why is it such a big secret anyway as to how they are made ? ... Does it really matter ?

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2014 18:50:40 GMT -5 dT said:

ellich - perhaps some Nde can answer with more speicific reasons. But most likely the reason for the length of the moccasins was practical. Apaches are a very practical people! Take a look at all those plants growing in Arizona ... many have sharp thorns. Those thorns can easily tear your feet and legs. So the higher moccasins offer better protection ... I think that is probably the reason. Keep in mind that Apaches were excellent runners - capable of running very long distances. So if you are running across miles and miles of desert land, it is very easy to accidentally brush against sharp thorns. The moccasins offer protection against that.

For People Making Moccasins:
If you look at the answer from "Truthful Guest" above - he is making a good point. Why would somebody copy Nde moccasins and then claim to sell them as "Apache moccasins"? Clearly they are not Apache ... if not made by Apaches. So why do this? It is wrong. Therefore, if you want to make your own moccasins, short or long, you can do it. Just dont label them as Apache crafts, or sell them in this way. You can call them your own moccasins if you like ... just be truthful about what you do. There is nothing stopping anybody from being resourceful - just live in TRUTH!! That's all.

Finally ... think about it. Moccasins were made for a reason. They offered protection to the feet. If Apaches were running long distances, sooner or later those moccasins would get holes or torn. So the real Apache warriors were excellent at FIXING their moccasins in a short period of time - and then running in them again the next day. This requires a good deal of experience, because you dont have many tools for fixing leather when you are on the trail. Yet they accomplished this task very well! So the END RESULT of having the moccasins is not just that somebody had the possession of a pair of nice-looking shoes ... it is the ability to make them, fix them, and make new ones when they are gone. All done efficiently, and not wasting valuable skin. It requires knowledge and practice, and that is why we should respect those who follow this WAY.

all the best,
dT

Dt .. the person making the Moccasins , is not claiming theyre apache .. they have just added their own twist to them. Theyre not claiming or advertising them as ' Apache Moccasins ' or claiming they are apache made. As you say yourself you can clearly see theyre not traditional apache moccasins and this is probly the reason they changed the look slightly to traditional apache moccasins. They are also softsole moccasins .. not the apache hardsole. If I did make a pair I wouldn't claim they were apache made either , but I can still call them apache moccasins if they look real and traditional. Theres nothing to stop me from saying that. In the early days before Europeans first started trading with Native people , they made their own beads from beans n stuff. But when they started getting beads from Europe they were using them aand still do today .. so how can they say its completely ' Native ' beadwork when its not really traditional the beads their using from the time of their ancestors. The Apache use them , glass beads and use shop bought tanned hides .. is that also traditional .. I don't think so do you ?

[dT]

I dont have any problem with people making their own moccasins, and people are free to SELL them as well if they want. There is no problem with that - so long as everyone is honest about what they are doing. I'm not giving anyone a hard time, if they are simply truthful and tell people honestly what they are doing. I'm not sure, though, that there is any value in "outsiders" copying the Chiricahua design for moccasins with the toes turned up. That was a special design that the Chiricahuas used themselves, and it was related to their own decorations and customs. It serves no practical purpose (as far as I know). I think that is an aspect of their Nde culture that we should respect and leave alone for them. Therefore, I would never do a design like that myself. I would encourage people doing crafts to avoid copying Chiricahua designs just for the sake of copying. Be CREATIVE - do your own designs!! :-)

On a PRACTICAL note ... I was just up in the Chiricahua mountains last weekend. I was walking off-trail, going to some places that most visitors do not see. I can tell you that bushwhacking through all that heavy undergrowth is hard work, and it's very hot work (even in early May). The manzanita bushes are very dense - between the manzanitas and other plants it really tears up your clothes and footwear. It helps have some very solid boots or moccasins .... I dont blame the Apaches for making their moccasins as strong as possible. It is VERY EASY to get your feet and legs torn up by the thorns and branches!!! Been there ... done that :-) !!!!

Pete (dT)