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Post by ndnhummingbird on Aug 20, 2011 21:11:18 GMT -5
I was wondering if the picture of the man next to Victorio is Beto (Victor)? I tried to follow the posts but got lost. Beto was my great grandfather and I am having difficulties finding documentation and photos of him. I would appreciate any help. Thank you.
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 21, 2011 14:35:20 GMT -5
I was wondering if the picture of the man next to Victorio is Beto (Victor)? I tried to follow the posts but got lost. Beto was my great grandfather and I am having difficulties finding documentation and photos of him. I would appreciate any help. Thank you. Welcome ndnhummingbird! I glad see you at our site. Sorry, but we have only a guess about "Victorio's phto". Some information about Beto from Greenville Goodwin's The Social Organization of the Western Apache here: amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=western&action=display&thread=1114&page=1
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Post by jasper4 on Dec 12, 2011 17:37:17 GMT -5
We all know the famous "Victorio" photograph. It's one of the first you get to know as soon as you start to delve into Apache history and culture. But is it really the great Chihenne chief? Doubts have arose, or have always been there. I first saw the second image in James L. Haley's very fine book "Apaches - A History and Culture Portrait". It was identified as a "recently discovered photograph of Victorio". And yes, it looks like the man on the first picture. At Siris it's labelled "Portrait of Scout n.d.". So photographer and date are unknown. When we look at the third image, it becomes clear that it shows the same man as on the second image. But if the man on the second image is indeed Victorio (and not a scout), does the third image make the impression of a Warms Springs Chiricahua chief? To me he looks like a Western Apache or a Yavapai, not like a Chiricahua. More important is that Victorio died in the Tres Castillos fight in 1880. The third photo was taken by Baker & Johnston in 1881, at the same occasion when Dutchy and Alchesay also posed for their image. The conclusion is that the third man can't be Victorio. So if it's the same man as on the first photograph, the famous "Victorio" photo doesn't show the prominent chief... Please share your thoughts with me... Biduyah is the first one the other two I dont know, in that noted is the fact of no headband which was discarded with capture thus the disdain of the eyes Laa'de'ste The fact of no photo was ever taken of Mangas Coloradas or Cochise point being to have one picture taken, meant the taking of ones SOUL so again the disdain in the eyes
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Jan 9, 2015 15:58:07 GMT -5
We all know the famous "Victorio" photograph. It's one of the first you get to know as soon as you start to delve into Apache history and culture. But is it really the great Chihenne chief? Doubts have arose, or have always been there. I first saw the second image in James L. Haley's very fine book "Apaches - A History and Culture Portrait". It was identified as a "recently discovered photograph of Victorio". And yes, it looks like the man on the first picture. At Siris it's labelled "Portrait of Scout n.d.". So photographer and date are unknown. When we look at the third image, it becomes clear that it shows the same man as on the second image. But if the man on the second image is indeed Victorio (and not a scout), does the third image make the impression of a Warms Springs Chiricahua chief? To me he looks like a Western Apache or a Yavapai, not like a Chiricahua. More important is that Victorio died in the Tres Castillos fight in 1880. The third photo was taken by Baker & Johnston in 1881, at the same occasion when Dutchy and Alchesay also posed for their image. The conclusion is that the third man can't be Victorio. So if it's the same man as on the first photograph, the famous "Victorio" photo doesn't show the prominent chief... Please share your thoughts with me... Attachments:
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Post by dT on Jan 9, 2015 18:50:29 GMT -5
I always thought that the "winning move of the Army" against Victorio ... was the Mexican Army using Tarahumara scouts against him. Those scouts could track well, and were excellent runners - as good as any Apache (or better). Victorio made a miscalculation at Tres Castillos - it cost him his life and it probably was the game changer for the Apache nation as well. Those are the fortunes, and misfortunes, of war.
Lozen was not at Tres Castillos. It's purely a personal opinion, but I think she deeply regretted it. In some way, she may have blamed herself for not being present and using her abilities to give her brother more warning of trouble. This is complete speculation, of course.
The Nde were losing a war of attrition - it couldn't go on indefinitely. Victorio was undoubtedly their most clever tactician. Each of the great Apache chiefs was "irreplaceable" ... when each of them died - they left a vacuum that couldn't be filled. You just cannot replace a lifetime of experience and skill. The Apaches didn't have enough "depth" to keep coming up with great chiefs - just not enough people.
Just my opinions, and lots of folks probably disagree :-)
dT
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Post by dT on Jan 12, 2015 14:28:15 GMT -5
In fairness to Victorio - I should say that he had the tremendous burden of trying to protect a large group of women and children at Tres Castillos. And he tried to do all of this - with very low supplies of ammunition. That was always the great problem for the Apaches, they had guns but not enough bullets. The Apaches at Tres Castillos fought tooth and nail against their enemies. The Mexicans had to blow them out of the rocks using dynamite - that is exactly what was done to finish the fight!
As for Victorio's personality - who can say? All these Chiefs were kind to the people in their tribe, and very hostile to outsiders. So it is pretty hard to rely on gossip about a man's personality. In those days, there was much hatred and bigotry between the White World and the Red World.
dT
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John Provencio Ortega Harding
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Post by John Provencio Ortega Harding on Jul 24, 2019 13:40:05 GMT -5
Victorio was my grandfather, what I want to add is the Chihene and the Nednhi were all related family. The two tribes were refered to as upper and lower Mimbres by the government. Victorio was married to Mangas's daughter, another daughter was married to Cochise another daughter was married to Caballo. There was another daughter married to another chief but I can't remember for sure, it might have been Manulito from the Navajo.
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natethegreat
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Long live the Indigenous Tribes of North America
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Post by natethegreat on Jul 31, 2019 2:31:13 GMT -5
Victorio had a chance to escape from the Northern Mexico desert into West Texas, to a watering hole where he could rest and the Mexicans could not travel behind. I think if I was Victorio, not being able to cross into West Texas and having to go back to the Mexican Desert with no sleep, no water, no ammunition and having to elude the Tarahumaran Scouts again was the final blow.
The commander of the West Texas U.S. forces had only recently decided on a new strategy to fighting Victorio. Instead of trying to find him and waste his energy, he sent troops to each known watering hole and waited for Victorio to come for water. Thats exactly what happened. Victorio must have been devastated. He probably for the first time in his life did not know what to do next. He was low on supplies and needed water badly. So he stopped at Tres Castilles. The Mexican commander went to the top of a hill and looked ins his long glasses and saw the dust cloud of Victorio coming from West Texas.
So why didnt Victorio just cut North back into his homeland? Many reasons. He needed water, very badly. They were dying of thirst. He needed to rest. He needed ammunition. He could not cross either border North or East because of U.S. troops stationed along the border, it would be difficult to do without abandoning the women and children. Tres Castilles had water and I think he knew it was his only option. His second option could have been to circle back around and try to cross back into the West texas desert and fight it out with the Buffalo Soldiers again. Respect.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 1, 2019 8:46:29 GMT -5
Don't forget his mind at this time. Low in amunition and supplies his people could not live two days in the same place on there lands in New Mexico. Lot of his Chiricahuas warriors had their family with Loco in San Carlos and some of the Mescaleros thought about returning home in their reservation. And mostly, much warriors had been killed like Ponce, Turivio, Raton and the three warrior's sons of Victorio.
I think, by this facts, Victorio was in a desperate mind at this time enable to have a clear thinking of the situation. He should come back in the secure Sierra Madre which he knew more than the plain lands of East Chihuahua. This desperate mind let him maybe listening the Mescaleros who knew better this places and made him a fatal mistake, I guess.
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on Aug 3, 2019 4:42:51 GMT -5
He would have been better off surrendering to US forces, at least his people would not have been sold into slavery and executed by burning to death. The great Apache commander, Victorio.
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Post by grahamew on Aug 4, 2019 4:26:57 GMT -5
Didn't work for Mangas Coloradas that way.
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on Aug 4, 2019 14:13:03 GMT -5
Didn't work for Magnas coloradas that way. Mangas surrendered to Confederate forces who were at war with the U.S. Government and were mostly shady characters. The Confederates did not have a Department for Indian Affairs and had no agents. I doubt they looked tbis far into it it, but they could get away with killing a legendary Chief more easily. 1861 Arizona Territory, Confederate forces compared to 1879 U.S. Cavalry, West Texas. Two different scenarios. The Buffalo Soldiers had no history of violence against Indians and had to answer to a much more inquiring Government as to the reasons of dead Chiefs.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 4, 2019 15:28:42 GMT -5
Sorry, but Mangas Coloradas wished peace talks with blue soldiers. He trusted them but not the grey soldiers. It was General West from California volunteers thath ordered the capture and the murder of the great Chief in january 18th, 1863. General West executed with pleasure an order from his superior, General Carleton : shot down every apache male more than 12 years and every apache who surrender would be send to Bosque Redondo where a lot of Mescaleros and Navajos died between 1864 and 1866 or 1868.
General West and Carleton were US soldiers as Lieutenant Bascom or General Kautz. If Cochise like very much General Howard, Victorio and the Chihennes had a poor remember of him. And Loco and the Chihennes at san Carlos suffered in the low lands near Fort Goodwin where soldiers or Apaches had died from malaria.
So why after 2 years of war, Victorio would surrender at soldiers who betrayaled them a lot of times. It was no more an option for him. Victorio was no confident on any American even Jeffords.
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on Aug 5, 2019 4:50:24 GMT -5
So you're saying the man that killed mangas Colorado this were Union soldiers and not Confederate. If I remember correctly Commander Carlton gave that order but the man beneath him in rank a man you might know name to kit Carson thought of that order as a joke and that order was not followed pretty much everyone knew that Carlton was just ranting and no real military man would shoot down any Apache all over the age of 12 without calls even kit Carson said that himself I seem to remember the man who murdered mangas coloradas as being Confederate soldiers but if they were Union than you are certainly right he had no other option and if I was him but not have went and surrendered to the Buffalo soldiers.
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Post by jasper4 on Aug 6, 2019 10:00:52 GMT -5
So you're saying the man that killed mangas Colorado this were Union soldiers and not Confederate. If I remember correctly Commander Carlton gave that order but the man beneath him in rank a man you might know name to kit Carson thought of that order as a joke and that order was not followed pretty much everyone knew that Carlton was just ranting and no real military man would shoot down any Apache all over the age of 12 without calls even kit Carson said that himself I seem to remember the man who murdered mangas coloradas as being Confederate soldiers but if they were Union than you are certainly right he had no other option and if I was him but not have went and surrendered to the Buffalo soldiers. Death In the summer of 1862, after recovering from a bullet wound in the chest, Mangas Coloradas met with an intermediary to call for peace. In January 1863, he decided to meet with U.S. military leaders at Fort McLane, in southwestern New Mexico. Mangas arrived under a flag of truce to meet with Brigadier General Joseph Rodman West, an officer of the California militia and a future Reconstruction senator from Louisiana. Armed soldiers took Mangas into custody. West gave an execution order to the sentries. “ Men, that old murderer has got away from every soldier command and has left a trail of blood for 500 miles on the old stage line. I want him dead tomorrow morning. Do you understand? I want him dead. ” That night, Mangas was tortured, shot and killed "escaping". While tied on the ground, Mangas was provoked with red hot bayonets until he moved to simulate his attempt to escape. The following day, U.S. soldiers, fascinated by the size of the Apache (Mangas was 6 feet, 6 inches tall), cut off his head, boiled it and sent the skull to Orson Squire Fowler, a phrenologist in New York City. Phrenological analysis of the skull and two sketches of it appear in Fowler's book. Daklugie, one of informants in Eve Ball's book, said the skull went to the Smithsonian Institution. However, the Smithsonian has done a thorough search for the skull, and reports that it never received it. Mangas' descendants and sources based on their testimony may have confused the Smithsonian with Fowler's Phrenological Cabinet in New York, where the skull was on display, leading to the misattribution. Another possible fate of the skull was that it was returned to the Apaches by the Smithsonian in a 1990 transfer, but was not individually labeled. The murder and mutilation of Mangas' body only increased the hostility between Apaches and the United States, resulting in war continuing for nearly another 25 years. per wikipedia and apparently when forts are more important than DASODAHAE And Thank You and to digress I did print no offense intented or made humor of it yet with satirical intent. Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2544/mangas-colorados#ixzz5vpjIUlsQ
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