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Post by kayitah on Aug 15, 2010 12:35:56 GMT -5
I would like to ask others who may know more about a rather delicate topic - wife-beating.
Being 28 years old, I have been interested in Chiricahua and Western Apache history and highly fascinated by their culture for ten years now.
Something that's always been an unpleasant mystery to me is the so-called wife-beating.
While there are a few reports that this happened, I do not know how "historians" come to call this a custom - yet many call it just that; the Apaches' habit of wife-beating.
I have a hard time to 1) accept it as a cultural habit among the ancient Apache; and 2) believe in historical "facts" that VERY often are nothing else than white man's made-up propaganda.
Please keep in mind - I do NOT want to "discuss" this in terms of a topic; I'd like to know about other's knowledge and hope to find the proof that this assertion is unjustified!
Thanks for your contributions.
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Post by jeroen on Aug 15, 2010 13:59:19 GMT -5
Kayitah, very good to bring this up!
Like you I have always wondered about this. Although there is no way to prove it, I am convinced that this so called "wife beating tradition" came about as a result of strong ethnocentrism on the part of white people. Undoubtedly, it did take place on very rare occasions (and then liquor may have played a major role), but likely no more than in white man's society... and certainly not so often to call it a custom... in fact, it is rather offensive and very insensitive to say that wife beating was part of a tradition in Apache culture. Many 19th century white observers judged the status of Indian women on the Plains hardly more than slaves without any knowledge about Indian social structure... I guess the same goes for the Apache. Even well informed men like Crook, Davis and Bourke, judged Apache culture according to American and not Apache standards, which is not only unfair but also resulted in much misunderstanding and even war (see the May 1885 outbreak)
I think women held equal status in Apache society with men and were highly respected and loved ( the importance of White Painted Woman, the extensive and elaborate coming of age ceremony etc. are a case in point) and the so called Apache Wars are full of stories of men fighting to protect their families. This in itself does not say that men under the influence of alcohol or under unbearable stress did take it out on their wives sometimes. By the way, I think the leaders who came to Britton Davis in May 1885 had a strong point in protesting against the rules imposed by Crook; the military had no business in their personal life style and family affairs...
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Post by kayitah on Sept 16, 2010 5:14:43 GMT -5
You brought up some very good points, Jeroen. Thank you.
I see it the same way as you do. Calling it a habit is unjustified and highly offensive.
There is a lot more substantial material expressing the men's deep love for their families than incidents of so-called wife-beating.
When Chato's camp was attacked by mexican troops in 1883, his wife and children were kidnapped by the mexicans and sent to some place in Chihuahua. After being unable to either locate the exact whereabouts of his family or convince the mexicans to give them back, he returned to the reservation and asked Crook to help him. In return Chato gave Crook his promise to not take up arms against the Army again. Instead he would help them bring in the other Chiricahuas who were still off the reservation. Chato went to Crook everyday to ask for any news. Unfortunately, he never got his family back.
Motsos, a man who surrendered with Geronimo and held prisoner at Fort Pickens, was described by some contemporary writer to be a very caring man who suffered badly because he missed his family that was incarcerated at Fort Marion, far away from him.
Shortly before Geronimo and his group surrendered to General Miles, one of his men (don't know his name) said to Geronimo "My wife and children have been captured. I love them and I want to be with them."
Only a kind-hearted and loving man can act and feel like ones mentioned above. And there are many more such cases.
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Post by jeroen on Sept 23, 2010 2:04:01 GMT -5
Yes, and the very reason the men with Naiche and Geronimo did surrender (and thereby risking their lives) was because they wanted to be with their families...
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Post by kayitah on Jan 31, 2011 17:57:15 GMT -5
As no one else seems to have another opinion, I guess we can conclude that it had the same causes back then as today and in any society on this planet, and that there are no indications that it did occur in form of a cultural habit.
I guess some men just couldn't handle the resentment of their wives after dealing away their stock while gaming during a tiswin party. Others, like Yahnozha, took their drink quietly and without bothering anyone.
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Post by jeroen on Feb 1, 2011 8:25:00 GMT -5
I fully agree... I have also wondered why this "wife beating" and "heavy tiswin drinking" are usually limited to the Chiricahua... the Western Apache and the Mescalero are hardly mentioned... probably because they were less "troublesome" and many of them were fighting "on the right side"...
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 1, 2011 13:26:05 GMT -5
I did not think the wife beating was in the culture of the Apache. The couple lived often on the wife's family. at this time she was protected by her father, her brothers and by the husbands of her sisters.
During the reservation, the social links were still strong for the Western apaches, so the women still be protected by her family.
For the Chiricahuas, 2 factors were differents:
*The war with Mexico and the deceases killed many people in each family, so some women did not have the family links to protect them. And with less men, the Chiricahuas men were more often polygam than orthers apaches. And polygamy incited crisis and some violence on "couple". Also, before, the tradition was to take as wifes, women of the same family. During the reservation period, it was not the case because of the number of the widows. *During the reservation time, because of the psycologic damages of the war, in the past, of the lost of their country (today, the Chiricahuas are the only apaches to not live on their own country), of the refusal to become agricultor (unlike the Western apaches, they never practiced this), of the few hunts, of the forbidden of raiding, the Chiricahuas men were boring, so, much of them drunk. Completely drunk, some of them became violent against anyone they met. And the more closers people of this men were their wife.
The whites took the excuse of wife beating to dictate their culture to Native Americans. But they forgott that wife beating and alcoholism was equal or worse than the Apaches on white society. They did not see that Apache women, in their culture, had more rights than american women (ex : the divorce)
A little smile on this hard subject: When Cochise met Howard, he wore on is hand a bad scar, made by the teeth of his younger wife.
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Post by jeroen on Feb 4, 2011 3:29:39 GMT -5
It is without a doubt true that the Chiricahuas were under much more psychological stress than other Apache groups, because of the uprooting, wars and constant army interferance in their personal lives... and for some individuals this was more than they could bear, taking out their frustrations on family members... But, I also think both the wife beating and the drinking were convenient excuses for Crook and his oficers to show that the Chiricahuas needed "civilization" much more than the White Mountain and other Apache groups (who were not resisting white domination any longer), justifying their actions. It never occurred to them, or they never bothered to learn, that people from another culture must be viewed and judged from their own cultural background... Btw, there was a major difference in tulapai and tiswin drinking: both were produced from corn, but tulapai was used during ceremonies and tiswin drinking was originally a social event.
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Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:26:54 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper. It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs. Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs. Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members. When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them. Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles. I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important. I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely, Siggy Jumper
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Post by dianec on May 9, 2011 14:13:53 GMT -5
This is a really delicate subject. The "Whites" once had their "Rule of thumb" law for punishing wives. Today I'm glad that domestic violence is recognized as unlawful and that all participants regardless of gender are arrested and taken to jail for violating this law in the United States. One of my great grandfathers who I'm glad I never met beat my great-grandmother so badly he crippled her in one leg. My late father used to attack my mother and the police did nothing. "Be nice to him and put him to sleep" the police officer would say. In the 1950's actress Joan Crawford once attack her adopted daughter and tried to choke her to death! When a law officer arrived at the actresses house and saw Christina Crawford sporting a recent swollen black eye as well as other injuries the official admonished Christine Crawford asking her to get along with her mother or he would have to take her (the attacked) to Juvenile hall! I believe women and girls were and are beaten in every society the world over. In one vintage "Life magazine"story in another land, I will never forget the photo of a women in a large wooden CRATE with only her head sticking out, what this poor woman did I can only imagine? My great-grandmother Juanita used to make Tiswino as it was called in Santa Rita New Mexico. I believe alcohol is one of the greatest problems universally where domestic violence is concerned. When it comes to Native Americans I supposed it was up to the husband and what type person he was and whether he considered his wife as a cherished person or as personal property? I doubt if Native American males were any different from others in human societies?
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Post by kayitah on May 9, 2011 15:10:27 GMT -5
Thanks for your valuably contribution, dianec.
I second your opinion that Native American men/husbands were/are not different from others in human societies - BUT they also weren't different in the way some "historians" (or more fitting - writers) put it by accusing them of some sort of customary women beating. I agree that it happened, but not in the kind of some custom or cultural trait.
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Post by dianec on May 9, 2011 15:11:05 GMT -5
If would like to add that my great-grandfather was partly Americanized and the domestic violence incident occurred in the 1920's.
Regarding my father, he was highly Americanized and his incident happened in the mid 1950's.
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Post by dianec on May 9, 2011 15:13:34 GMT -5
Thanks for your valuably contribution, dianec. I second your opinion that Native American men/husbands were/are not different from others in human societies - BUT they also weren't different in the way some "historians" (or more fitting - writers) put it by accusing them of some sort of customary women beating. I agree that it happened, but not in the kind of some custom or cultural trait. I agree with you also apachegeneral! I have read accounts where it was said that Apaches hated that U.S. soldiers would not allow wife-beating. I never knew what to think of that?
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Post by coeurrouge on May 9, 2011 15:14:18 GMT -5
This is a really delicate subject. The "Whites" once had their "Rule of thumb" law for punishing wives. Today I'm glad that domestic violence is recognized as unlawful and that all participants regardless of gender are arrested and taken to jail for violating this law in the United States. One of my great grandfathers who I'm glad I never met beat my great-grandmother so badly he crippled her in one leg. My late father used to attack my mother and the police did nothing. "Be nice to him and put him to sleep" the police officer would say. In the 1950's actress Joan Crawford once attack her adopted daughter and tried to choke her to death! When a law officer arrived at the actresses house and saw Christina Crawford sporting a recent swollen black eye as well as other injuries the official admonished Christine Crawford asking her to get along with her mother or he would have to take her (the attacked) to Juvenile hall! I believe women and girls were and are beaten in every society the world over. In one vintage "Life magazine"story in another land, I will never forget the photo of a women in a large wooden CRATE with only her head sticking out, what this poor woman did I can only imagine? My great-grandmother Juanita used to make Tiswino as it was called in Santa Rita New Mexico. I believe alcohol is one of the greatest problems universally where domestic violence is concerned. When it comes to Native Americans I supposed it was up to the husband and what type person he was and whether he considered his wife as a cherished person or as personal property? I doubt if Native American males were any different from others in human societies? Sure, it was certainly true but... In opposition of White society on this times, when the apache society was strong, The Apache husband lived in the family of his wife except for few of them. And if he beats his wife, the men of her family defend her from her husband.
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Post by dianec on May 9, 2011 15:46:25 GMT -5
This is a really delicate subject. The "Whites" once had their "Rule of thumb" law for punishing wives. Today I'm glad that domestic violence is recognized as unlawful and that all participants regardless of gender are arrested and taken to jail for violating this law in the United States. One of my great grandfathers who I'm glad I never met beat my great-grandmother so badly he crippled her in one leg. My late father used to attack my mother and the police did nothing. "Be nice to him and put him to sleep" the police officer would say. In the 1950's actress Joan Crawford once attack her adopted daughter and tried to choke her to death! When a law officer arrived at the actresses house and saw Christina Crawford sporting a recent swollen black eye as well as other injuries the official admonished Christine Crawford asking her to get along with her mother or he would have to take her (the attacked) to Juvenile hall! I believe women and girls were and are beaten in every society the world over. In one vintage "Life magazine"story in another land, I will never forget the photo of a women in a large wooden CRATE with only her head sticking out, what this poor woman did I can only imagine? My great-grandmother Juanita used to make Tiswino as it was called in Santa Rita New Mexico. I believe alcohol is one of the greatest problems universally where domestic violence is concerned. When it comes to Native Americans I supposed it was up to the husband and what type person he was and whether he considered his wife as a cherished person or as personal property? I doubt if Native American males were any different from others in human societies? Sure, it was certainly true but... In opposition of White society on this times, when the apache society was strong, The Apache husband lived in the family of his wife except for few of them. And if he beats his wife, the men of her family defend her from her husband. That certainly makes sense! Thanks for that contribution!
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