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Post by jasper4 on Dec 14, 2011 16:23:40 GMT -5
Yes x-frame, the woman next to the whit-hair-lady on the zooming in. Could it be Siki? No it is not, I have seen this pics one time many years ago in old mexico. Someone said it, the pics are horrible, heartbreaking for ME. I know some of them from oral history or stories I heard from the 'old ones' in the 1950;s in OKLA. The ones who lived were made slave, most died why, well put a Eagle, Hawk, Wolf, Puma in a cage and see a transformation. The pics sickened me and as a former tribal chairperson once said, dont trust the mexicans. She was born as a POW.
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Post by jasper4 on Apr 15, 2012 20:49:23 GMT -5
the wonders of the NET a HYPE version of the so called victory by the mexican and local indios on the party of Biduyah or believe it or NOT.
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Post by srushfor on Aug 21, 2012 12:34:33 GMT -5
My name is Scott Rushforth. I work for the Mescalero Apache Tribe Language Program. The Program is interested in getting the photographs of Apache prisoners from Victorio’s band after Tres Castillos battle. We have the one in the middle, but need the other two.
Can anyone help me in this regard?
My email is srushfor@nmsu.edu
Thank you.
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Post by dT on Aug 21, 2012 14:39:49 GMT -5
It is difficult to read fine details in the photo's. But the woman with white hair appears to have a deep scar above her right eye. This is circumstantial, but could be consistent with serious scratches from a lion.
Scalping is a very disturbing practice - but it has been with the human race for thousands of years. It was widely practised in the old West, and not just by/against Native Americans. White soldiers in the Civil War (especially certain confederate bands) used it against their white enemies (soldiers on Union side). Given the deep feelings of anger between the Nde people and the Mexican villages ... it is not surprising in these photo's. But it is terrible to hear about it being done against women and children.
dT
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Post by dT on Aug 21, 2012 15:22:07 GMT -5
This photo below shows Tres Castillos in Chihuahua, Mexico where Victorio and his warriors died. The hill and rocks offered good lookout positions, but not enough protection from a large enemy force that could surround them. Victorio's warriors ran out of bullets here, and fought to their deaths. Based on some written accounts - we can make a good guess about what happened. At the time of this incident Victorio's forces were tired or exhausted, they were low on food, and had very little ammunition for their rifles. Unfortunately, the Mexicans who were pursuing them had men who were fresh for battle, with a lot of arms and ammunition, and an experienced leader who knew Apache tactics. The Chihenne Apache's were also outnumbered by about 3-to-1. They were overtaken near Tres Castillos because they had to travel slowly - they had women and children with them. During the initial fighting in the afternoon and evening the Apaches used up their remaining bullets. That night Victorio and the warriors knew they could not survive the fight that would come the next day. So in the middle of the night they sang their death songs for a long time. At the same time, Victorio gave permission for any women, children, and old people to escape during the darkness - if they could. In fact, some did escape, including the wily old chief Nana who crawled out between the Mexican soldiers and went on to become the greatest tactical fighter for the Chiricahua. All the Chihenne warriors remained at Tres Castillos and fought to their deaths the next morning - no doubt trying to protect their families. Their only strategy was to attempt to fight hand-to-hand with knives and tomahwaks - not easy to do when you are exhausted, and out of food and water. They were all killed ... with a loss of almost 80 warriors. This was a huge setback for the Chiricahua, since many great fighters were gone forever. This is why the photo at the start of this section shows many women and children captured after this battle. It must have been a very frightening experience for them - during the final night when the warriors were singing death songs, and then the next day when their husbands and fathers all died in battle nearby. dT Attachments:
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Post by gregor on Aug 22, 2012 4:17:58 GMT -5
I found this article of an Mexican, who visited Tres Castillos. www.google.de/imgres?q=Tres+Castillos+in+Chihuahua&num=10&hl=de&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=865&tbm=isch&tbnid=EW-_cE7gzQAs_M:&imgrefurl=http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/tres-castillos.-el-lugar-donde-murieron-los-apaches-chihuahua.html&docid=hDjqQS56I45ijM&imgurl=http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/assets/images/notas_2011/tres-castillos-chihuahua.jpg&w=630&h=320&ei=hpk0UNr3FsqphAePm4HQCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=388&vpy=214&dur=5109&hovh=160&hovw=315&tx=218&ty=85&sig=112089800893915779341&page=1&tbnh=101&tbnw=199&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:78 In the last third he says this: Tres Castillos after 115 years The history of Apache warfare has its climax in Three Castillos . After reading over and over again several books on this war, I decided to visit the forgotten site. I have deep respect for the players, and for me it was important to know the sites where they were, essentially where the Apaches died.
Three Castillos is located about 150 km northeast of the city of Chihuahua, in the municipality of Coyame, in a region noted for its aridity. On a cold December morning I left the small community of Coyame toward the spot, through an unpaved 80 km, which is not always healthy.
The road has a number of vast plains dotted, occasionally, by small mountains. The dryness is extreme and intensely beautiful, outstanding landscapes overflowing with ocotillo, yucca, mesquite, governors, jasmine and soles. Scattered across the plains are several cattle ranches, some of them survivors of the Apache era . We went through several of them, only saw other deviations: Santo Niño, La Rinconada, La Mora, La Escuelita, La Paloma, The John, Agua Zarca and Escondido.
After an hour and a half we distinguish our goal in the distance : the hills of Tres Castillos. Among the cloudy sky and a ray of sun that was shining with golden tones, the three small hills. Before reaching our goal, we walked across the ranch El Escondido, on whose lands the hills are, and ask for permission. He agreed and even gave us a couple of keys so we opened the doors there on the road.
Fifteen minutes later our vehicle stopped, just 100 m from three granitic hills. With about 50 to 60 m in height the highest are oriented almost north-south, and surrounded by an immense arid plain that floods from time to time and form water bodies some length.
The site is impressive for its solitude, and the view is lost after the vast horizon. So I think the Apaches liked the desert , as the horizons are as broad as their freedom.
Vestiges of the Apaches After 115 years Three Castles appears intact. There are still the trenches of the Apaches, and the remains of their camps. We even found some shell casings at the time, certainly traces of the struggle and arrowheads, stone knives and other tools. In the southern located hill is a small cave where they killed the last Apaches of the Victorio group. I climbed to the summit of the three hills and I marveled at the view. I thought about the significance of the site; heard the distant wail of a group of coyotes: "The howl of the Apaches", I thought, the howl as a harbinger of death, and in my mind I see a picture of Victorio and his wake throughout the night of October 14, 1880. When I was in the middle top of the hill, I cried with all my heart to hear some echo, and to my surprise was heard perfectly well. The echo returned my images of the Apaches in struggle, with painted bodies and firing their rifles and arrows.
Throughout Chihuahua I have not found a single Apache grave . Actually, Three Castles is like the tomb of an entire ethnic group. It is the grave of all Apaches and its epitaph is the hostile nature that surrounds it."I hope I translated the passage correct. But to me it was interesting that even today relicts of this infamous fight can be found around Tres Castillos.
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Post by gregor on Aug 22, 2012 4:45:43 GMT -5
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Post by dT on Aug 22, 2012 9:35:14 GMT -5
gregor - thank you for the photo's ... which were better than the one that I posted. They show the landscape much more clearly. Also, those were very interesting comments from the Mexican visitor.
When the visitor says he found trenches - I would think those actually belonged to the attacking Mexican forces. I have not heard of Apaches digging trenches, but maybe I am wrong about this. There are hills and rocks at the site of the battle, so there is enough cover for apache warfare. The problem was that Victorio's warriors were surrounded. I do agree that it is interesting that some relics still exist there today.
I think a couple of the Mexican visitor's guesses are not entirely right. The small hils at this location only provided temporary cover for Victorio. He was headed towards distant high mountains with his people - they were moving as fast as possible to get off these plains. Victorio knew he was vulnerable there, especially with women and children in his group. As I said earlier, the presence of entire families meant that Victorio's band moved a lot slower - otherwise I believe that the warriors would have escaped. The Apaches were physically exhausted because of a lot of travel and not enough food and supplies.
It appears that Victorio was surprised by the Mexican forces when they trailed him at Les Castillos - he did not know about them until they were less than a mile from his men. That would indicate that Victorio had not posted his own scouts at the rear of his band of warriors, perhaps because he felt that the enemy was not so close.
It is written that some Chihenne believe that because Lozen was absent from this battle - that Victorio had no special warning about an approaching enemy. It is said that Lozen had the special power to tell when her enemies were close. But she was not at Tes Castillos at the time of the battle. These things fall into the realm of Apache lore - so you will have to make up your own mind about this :-)
Tres Castillos was a battle that brought an end to a truly great chief and many outstanding warriors for the Chiricahua - it was a major turning point at the end of the Indian wars.
dT
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Post by dT on Aug 22, 2012 11:43:46 GMT -5
Here are some things that remain puzzling about Victorio's final battle at Tres Castillos. At least - these things are problems for my understanding. :-)
1. Why was Victorio so far south into Mexico at this stage. He was travelling on territory that was less familiar (perhaps), and did not offer really good protection for the woman and children. So why was he in this part of the land, instead of further north where the Apache strongholds were located?
2. Why was Victorio surprised by the Mexican forces who were trailing him? Did he fail to post scouts on the rear of his group who would see an enemy approaching from behind? Or did he post those scouts, but the Mexican forces were clever and found a way to distract or kill them silently?
3. Why did Lozen choose not to travel with her brother on this journey?
4. How many horses did Victorio have when he fought this final battle? The availability of horses would have given him more choices for defense, because he could have split his warriors into different attacking parties. But with few horses, his men would have been confined to the hills and piles of rock. Pehaps the Chihennes had already killed a lot of their horses, because they were low on food.
5. If some women, children and old men could escape in the night, before the final fight when all of the warriors were killed, then why didn't Victorio attempt to use his warriors to break out at night through the Mexican lines?
Perhaps we will never know the answers to most of these questions. But there may be some answers still within the Chiricahua community today, and some other answers that could be researched by people who look into old information from Mexico.
dT
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Post by gregor on Aug 22, 2012 15:27:29 GMT -5
Dt - when the Mexican visitor speaks of trenches, I believe that he means a cavity or dell that has been raised with stones to provide protection to the shooters. On one of his photos (see link) at least it looks to that way.
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Post by dT on Aug 22, 2012 16:12:07 GMT -5
In that case you may be quite right - and so is the visitor. It would seem then that Victorio's warriors were mostly on foot, and could not fight very much from horseback. Perhaps most of their horses were dead (or eaten), or they did not have enough ammunition to fight effectively on horseback. Their situation must have been critical - forcing them to take whatever cover they could find or build quickly.
dT
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Post by jasper4 on Aug 22, 2012 22:38:03 GMT -5
In the fall of 1880, while fleeing an American command of Colonel George Buell into the Chihuahua desert,
Victorio let his guard down long enough to be attacked by 350 Mexican and Tarahumara Indians under Colonel Joaquin Terrazas.
In the two-day Battle of Tres Castillos, meaning "Three Peaks," more than half of the Apaches were killed and all but a few of the rest were taken prisoner.
Victorio turned up among the dead. It is not known whether he died fighting, or as legend has it, he took his own life before the enemy could get to him.
The actual occurence of many parties after the group plus being without Lozen left the group being encircled. The tracking help of the Tarahumara is played down by the mexican col terrazas whose political career was vaulted into the limelight with this so called battle. Which was a more a execution of the group by the mexicans. The fact of the matter to go into mexico, now to get facts, pictures and other first hand accounts would be to say the least, not a good idea due to the war going on in the area.
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Post by dT on Aug 22, 2012 22:59:11 GMT -5
Jasper - thank you! A good reminder that the Mexicans were helped by the local Tarahumara Indians. Hence undoubtedly the tracking and scouting skills of the Tarahumara probably were the reason why this group pursuing Victorio got so close - before his warriors became aware of their presence.
Also, I made a mistake above in one of my comments when I said the final hand-to-hand fighting by the Apaches involved knives and tomahawks. Apaches did not use tomahawks usually. So the final fighting would be with knives, clubs (rifles used as clubs), spears (lances) and improvised weapons.
And the final comment on your post is very true. The state of Chihuahua in Mexico is now dominated by ruthless drug cartels who pose a serous danger to any visitors. In fact, it's fair to say their behavior today is so evil that they are worse than terrorists.
dT
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Post by jasper4 on Aug 23, 2012 10:44:31 GMT -5
References
Thrapp, Dan L. (1974). Victorio and the Mimbres Apaches. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 0-8061-1076-7. Leckie, William H. (1967). The Buffalo Soldiers: A Narrative of the Negro Cavalry in the West. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press. LCCN 67-15571. Kaywaykla, James (1972). Eva Ball. ed. In the Days of Victorio: Recollections of a Warm Springs Apache. Tucson, Arizona: University of Arizona Press. LCCN 73-101103. Some of these give insight Kaywaykla was a Elder of mine when young and his account as told to Ms Ball is insightful.
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Post by jasper4 on Aug 23, 2012 11:01:40 GMT -5
Here are some things that remain puzzling about Victorio's final battle at Tres Castillos. At least - these things are problems for my understanding. :-) 1. Why was Victorio so far south into Mexico at this stage. He was travelling on territory that was less familiar (perhaps), and did not offer really good protection for the woman and children. So why was he in this part of the land, instead of further north where the Apache strongholds were located? 2. Why was Victorio surprised by the Mexican forces who were trailing him? Did he fail to post scouts on the rear of his group who would see an enemy approaching from behind? Or did he post those scouts, but the Mexican forces were clever and found a way to distract or kill them silently? 3. Why did Lozen choose not to travel with her brother on this journey? 4. How many horses did Victorio have when he fought this final battle? The availability of horses would have given him more choices for defense, because he could have split his warriors into different attacking parties. But with few horses, his men would have been confined to the hills and piles of rock. Pehaps the Chihennes had already killed a lot of their horses, because they were low on food. 5. If some women, children and old men could escape in the night, before the final fight when all of the warriors were killed, then why didn't Victorio attempt to use his warriors to break out at night through the Mexican lines? Perhaps we will never know the answers to most of these questions. But there may be some answers still within the Chiricahua community today, and some other answers that could be researched by people who look into old information from Mexico. dT To give some feedback from my POV in the order to your inq. 1. Nde had been known to range into old mexico as far as 250 miles. 2. The tracking by tarahumara 3. lozen well. two stories are one she was at san carlos doubt it, was with group of women and children who were left behind due to one woman giving birth and Lozen led this group. 4. There would have been a small number of horses, due to they were a food source. The group had been encircled thus trapped. 5. Nde when facing death will always defend women and children why women can birth more and the children are future of the band. My answers, at best not to detailed, yet the death of Biduyah and many great warriors still is a testimony to the 'Tigers of the human species' as the white general was quoted to say about the Nde Peace
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