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Post by perico on May 11, 2010 15:10:36 GMT -5
Does anyone have a high resolution photograph of the Reed & Wallace picture of Becalthey?
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Post by kayitah on May 14, 2010 1:28:00 GMT -5
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Post by jeroen on Aug 7, 2010 10:54:41 GMT -5
When Naiche left the reservation in May 1885, not all members of his band followed him and those remaining were then headed by Bish to yey, at least according to Louis Kraft's "Lt. Charles Gatewood & His Apache Wars memoir"... Could this be the same man known as Becalthey, also a Chokonen leader who stayed... Kraft further states that this Bish to yey, was Kayitah's father...
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 7, 2010 11:05:20 GMT -5
When Naiche left the reservation in May 1885, not all members of his band followed him and those remaining were then headed by Bish to yey, at least according to Louis Kraft's "Lt. Charles Gatewood & His Apache Wars memoir"... Could this be the same man known as Becalthey, also a Chokonen leader who stayed... Kraft further states that this Bish to yey, was Kayitah's father... For this question look at Naiche/Natchez's thread p.2, my reply #28 on Jul 30, 2009, 12:02am - amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=southwest&action=display&thread=643&page=2Becalthey and Bish to yey is a different men. |
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Post by jeroen on Aug 9, 2010 4:39:47 GMT -5
I forgot about that one... thanks! Can you confirm that Bish to yey was Kayitah's father? If so, one can conclude he was Warm Springs , rather than Chokonen. Also, one would expect a Chokonen to lead the band of Naiche that remained on the reservation...
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 9, 2010 5:54:33 GMT -5
I forgot about that one... thanks! Can you confirm that Bish to yey was Kayitah's father? If so, one can conclude he was Warm Springs , rather than Chokonen. Also, one would expect a Chokonen to lead the band of Naiche that remained on the reservation... (Charles B. Gatewood, Louis Kraft), p123: Ka-teah had served as a scout under Britton Davis at the time of the 1885 breakout and took part in the hunt for Geronimo and Naiche. His father, Bish-to-yey (or Bishtoyyeh), became chief by appointment of Naiche’s people who opted not to return to the war trail in 1885. |
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Post by kayitah on Aug 9, 2010 6:19:22 GMT -5
interesting, thanks for posting this. Is there an image of Bish-to-yeh?
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Post by jeroen on Aug 10, 2010 11:12:57 GMT -5
Sharp observation Naiches, so Bish to yey was appointed... it proves once again that American authorities knew very little about the Chiricahua people and their social and political structure. My guess is that most Chiricahua paid very little attention to appointments like these and to imposed rules that did not fit well within their own culture...
So far, I have never seen an image of Bish to yey...
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 10, 2010 12:14:55 GMT -5
Sharp observation Naiches, so Bish to yey was appointed... it proves once again that American authorities knew very little about the Chiricahua people and their social and political structure. This is citation from Louis Kraft, he was a little as a "children's author", IMHO. I think Kraft just wanted to say that Beshtuaye was the leader of 'peaceful' Chokonens. |
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Post by jeroen on Aug 15, 2010 5:13:08 GMT -5
from Naiches' quote of Skinner:
This is a list of peacful Chiricahua chiefs. Spelling of names from two different sourcers:
1.Globe-Democrat (St. Louis) 18 sept 1886, cit. Skinner, Apache Rock Crumbles, p.77
2.New York Times (NY) 18 sept 1886
Becathlay (Vecattley/Becalthey/Baculthin) Chiricahua - 13 men, 32 women, 24 children in band
Loco (Loco) WSprgs 15 m, 27 w, 22 ch
Cheos (Chevez / Chino (?)) Chiricahua 10 m, 23 w, 31 ch
Jose (Jose) WSprgs 5 m, 25 w, 19 ch
Zili (Zedah/Zeele/Zele) WSprgs 8 m, 23 w, 18 ch
Chato (Chatto) Chiricahua 4 m, 18w, 25 ch
Beshtuay (Bischtuay/Bish Touyeh/Bish-to-yey) WSprgs 10 m, 14 w, 16 ch
Total 65 m, 162, 155 ch
All 382
it seems clear that Bishtoyey led only a small band, probably his own extended family, and few if any Chokonens...
No doubt, Louis Kraft is a honest historian with a sincere interest in Chiricahua history, but a number of his statements and conclusions are open for discussion...
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Post by kayitah on Aug 15, 2010 11:35:31 GMT -5
The first man is identified as Bish Touyeh, the second one as Bistonay... The first one must be Kayitah's father. I'm not sure about the individual on the second image, though... is it the same person? Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Aug 15, 2010 13:27:59 GMT -5
It is very difficult to make a good judgement with such poor quality images... unfortunately I don't have a better one either... But somehow I feel it is the same man indeed...
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 15, 2010 15:06:34 GMT -5
Is one and the same person, look at his gray head.
kayitah, where you get this picture?
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Post by jeroen on Aug 19, 2010 3:33:18 GMT -5
Bish to yey, Bish Touyeh and Bistonay are all versions of the same name, so it it safe to conclude that it is indeed the same man...
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Post by kayitah on Aug 25, 2010 12:34:12 GMT -5
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