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Post by Dietmar on Jan 2, 2017 10:58:22 GMT -5
I´m wondering about the credibility of the available portraits of Isatai. If you compare all three photos, that allegedly are of Quenatosavit/Isatai, do you think they all show the same man?
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 2, 2017 12:07:03 GMT -5
Actually I believe that whoever wrote "Isa-Tai" with pencil on the back of the Bliss photo has confused it with the name Isa-Tah. At least that is my theory. White Horse, a renowned Kiowa war-leader, was listed in records at Fort Marion (where he was imprisoned between 1875 and 78) and Carlisle as Isa-Tah (although his Kiowa name was Tsen-tainte). I can´t tell if Isa-Tai or Isa-Tah has a different meaning in Comanche language. However I think it is White Horse in the Bliss photo on the left. The portrait of Isatai (or better Quenatosavit) below was taken in 1885, when he visited Fort Worth with Quanah Parker and Yellow Bear. The full photo is in: "Lens on the Texas Frontier" by Lawrence T. Jones.
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Post by grahamew on Jan 2, 2017 14:01:43 GMT -5
Not sure, but the guy in the suit is not the same man as the other two. The Bliss, I'm guessing is about 1878-ish, maybe a little earlier - although it can't be if it's White Horse, can it, because he was sent to Fort Marion and didn't come back until then? The family photo clearly shows an older man. I have no idea of the photographer. The Soule photo (that's a Soule in the Addison mount, isn't it?) has to be from 67-74. He was dead by 92, according to Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I know) and he grew rather rotund in his last years. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know, but you're right: neither of them look like the man in the suit. The lips and chin don't look right. I think they do look like each other, with maybe ten years (or probably more) between them.
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Post by grahamew on Jan 2, 2017 14:20:30 GMT -5
I've also seen this man labelled as Isatai: May look a bit more like your man in the suit...
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 2, 2017 17:25:49 GMT -5
The second photo has an imprint on the back that says it was also taken at Fort Worth.
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 2, 2017 19:21:09 GMT -5
Hoo boy: so many problems so little time.
I'll tackle the easy one first: According to the working copy of the 1892-93 Kiowa census (Oklahoma Historical Society Microfilm roll KA 4), the Kiowa known as Tsatigh/White Horse,age 50, died in January 1893.['Tsentigh' seems to be Mooney's spelling.]
He is the man with the Winchester carbine, in front of his tipi; photo by Mooney, summer 1892.
The man with the woman's hand on his shoulder is Casper Tissoyo, aka Casper Mowway (son of bear-clawed Mowway); that's why the image is sometimes labeled as "Mowway and Wife". The woman is Kidado, aka Nellie Wuthtakwabitty. Photo by Lenny & Sawyers. {EDIT 2017-01-06 10:30 NO, it's not L&S!!}
re "I can´t tell if Isa-Tai or Isa-Tah has a different meaning in Comanche language." - Isatai has only one meaning in Comanche. -- "White Horse" would be tosa + either puku or teheya - It is the only name even close to that on either Comanche or Kiowa census [update: except a cryptic "Esataha" on the Kiowa list that I have flagged 'cause I can't find its source.]
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 2, 2017 19:50:34 GMT -5
Wasn't the above photo on the Addison card taken at the same time as the Soule image? (same hair ornaments, same breast plate, etc.) Since Addison worked in the late 1880s-90s, it would seem safe to assume that he copied a Soule image to his own card stock.
tk Esimotso
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Post by grahamew on Jan 3, 2017 4:16:30 GMT -5
So Isatai has definitely not been confused with White Horse, who is the man in the Soule and Mooney photos; the man in the Lenny and Sawyer's photo is Mowway's son; the man in the Bliss photo and the family group photo is Isatai; the man in the suit has also been mislabelled and is Mowway's son?
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 3, 2017 7:47:41 GMT -5
Lawrence T. Jones states in his “Lens on the Texas Frontier” book on page 109/110 that Quanah Parker , Yellow Bear, Isa-Tai and the eldest son of Isa-tai visited Fort Worth in December 1885. There the group was photographed by Augustus R. Mignon, the same photographer (!) who took the picture of Casper Mowway. Yellow Bear, btw, was killed during his stay at Fort Worth, due to a gas lamp accident. I haven´t found any other source yet that confirms Isatai´s participation on that trip. I admit that it is only my own impression that led me to believe White Horse could be the man in the Bliss photo. However, White Horse indeed went under the name Isa-Tah to Fort Marion and Carlisle, for whatever reason… maybe a confusion created by Captain Richard Pratt. See: List of Indian prisoners in "Battlefield and Classroom" by Pratt also here: home.epix.net/~landis/whitehorse.html
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 3, 2017 8:35:21 GMT -5
"So Isatai has definitely not been confused with White Horse, who is the man in the Soule and Mooney photos..." and the Addison photo.
"...the man in the Lenny and Sawyer's photo is Mowway's son ..." Casper Tissoyo, Yes.
"...the man in the Bliss photo and the family group photo is Isatai..." Quenatosavit.
"... the man in the suit has also been mislabelled and is Mowway's son?" Casper Tossoyo. It would seem so
### "...eldest son of Isa-tai..." This is quite strange. In 1885, Quenatosavit, then age 38, was married to Tovetty, listed as age 18 (more likely 21-ish). They had then only one son, Ponee, later called Heck Eschiti, who was 2. (The 1883 census listed no children for Quenatosavit and Tovetty.) Why would Ponee, an only child, be listed as "eldest"?
"the same photographer (!) who took the picture of Casper Mowway..." i.e., the second, suited, picture. [Note: Casper was born ca 1872.]
tk Esimotso
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 4, 2017 8:32:58 GMT -5
I´m sorry Tom, but if Casper Tissoyo was born in 1872, how could he be the man in the Augustus Mignon group photograph, taken in Fort Worth in 1885? He would have been around 13 years old then. I saved the portrait of "Mowway and wife" as an Mignon photo as well. Or did he copied the picture from Lenny & Sawyer?:
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 4, 2017 11:03:03 GMT -5
Btw, I checked several newspaper articles covering the death of Yellow Bear, but found no mention of any other Comanches when that accident happened.
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 4, 2017 19:32:20 GMT -5
I'm sorry too. I can't explain it. And to confuse matters further, Tissoyo does not appear on the census lists until 1892, where he is listed as being 21 y.o. [As an adult that year, he signed the Jerome Agreement selling the reservation.]
[I just went and dug out the original Mignon pic from Larry's collection at UT. I hate to say it but I think Larry's IDs on the other men in that pic are questionable also. Specifically, I think (I'm checking my sources in Oklahoma) the "younger man standing at right" is NOT "the eldest son of Isa-Tai" but is Permamsu, aka Comanche Jack, a Yamparika, nephew of Ten Bears [not to be confused with the other 'Comanche Jack' Watchymamsookwat]
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a HWAG [Historical Wild Ass Guess]. That is, IF the date, 1885, is correct, this group might represent the leaders of the "pro-leasing" faction of Comanches who had just (Dec 1884)concluded an end run around the Agent and the BIA, and signed a six-year lease with a group of Texas cattlemen. Those leaders included Quanah, Permamsu, and *Soddyteka* [/sari/ 'dog' + /tuka/ 'eater'] who was a much older man. Thus, I would suggest (for the moment) that the seated older man was not Woodahaupith [/wura/ bear' + ohaupitU/ 'yellow'] but was Soddyteka.
But that does not identify the other seated man.
tk Esimotso
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 5, 2017 9:38:26 GMT -5
I think we´re getting closer. This is a portrait of Dog Eater, taken probably some years earlier than 1885... my guess is by Bliss. I post the two pevious photos again to make comparison easier: He doesn´t look like a "much older man" at all, but in my opinion Dog Eater resembles the man in the Mignon pictures.
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 5, 2017 9:47:05 GMT -5
Here´s the whole picture from the L.T. Jones collection. I´ve been thinking for a while if the man sitting on the left could be the principle Kiowa-Apache chief White Man. He went with Quanah to the East at least on one other occasion. However, I just read in William T Hagan´s Quanah biography that the delegation consited of Quanah, "faithful" Permamsu, Dog Eater and a Kiowa named Loud Talker. White Man had several names, but I don´t know if Loud Talker was one of them. White Man, Kiowa-Apache Mmmh, I´m not absolutely sure of my last assumption myself... P.S.: In Hagan´s book it is stated that George Fox, E.C. Suggs and Horace P. Jones as interpreter accompanied the delegation. Maybe two of them are in the photo as well. also: home.epix.net/~landis/quanah.html
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