|  Author | Topic: Touch The Cloud (Read 92 times) |
brock
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|  | Touch The Cloud
« Thread Started on Oct 31, 2009, 4:30pm » | |
I have noticed a rumor circulating the net that Touch The Cloud was not at the Battle of the Little Bighorn because he was obtaining rations. I spoke to the family about this and they tell me that Touch The Cloud's wife Light Woman had a nephew who had lost his family. He was granted permission to use the Touch The Cloud name. The nephew went by Paul Touch The Cloud. Paul stayed on the rez and did not participate in the battle of the Little Bighorn.
Also they told me that Touch The Cloud had no 's' on the end of it that seems to be added quite often.
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ephriam
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| | Re: Touch The Cloud
« Reply #1 on Oct 31, 2009, 11:31pm » | |
Hi Brock:
I think the evidence strongly supports that Touch the Cloud was not at the Little Bighorn.
1. He was present at the Cheyenne River Agency council on July 29, 1876. He is listed in the council proceedings as "Push the Cloud, son of the late Lone Horn," clearly indicating that it was he and not another relative. Granted, this by itself does not rule out Touch the Cloud being at the Little Bighorn; he would have had a month to get back to Cheyenne River after the battle, which could have easily been accomplished.
2. None of the many first person native accounts mention Touch the Cloud as being present at the Little Bighorn. Given his role as a leader among the Minneconjou, I find that very compelling. The only possible identification I am aware of is from Flying By who listed Lone Horn as being at the Little Bighorn. Since Lone Horn had died the previous winter, it is a possible reference to the son.
3. But most compelling, a reporter interviewing the Lakota delegation visiting Washington, D.C. in the fall of 1877 specifically stated that Touch the Cloud was not at the Little Bighorn. Presumably this information came from Touch the Cloud himself.
I recognize that there is an oral history tradition that says that Touch the Clouds was there. I will have to go back and check my notes but my recollection is that I spoke to a different descendant a couple of years ago who understood that he was not there. Perhaps further work on the oral history at Cheyenne River might yield some additional information on this. But at least at this point, I think the evidence supports that he was not there.
ephriam
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brock
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| | Re: Touch The Cloud
« Reply #2 on Nov 1, 2009, 12:46pm » | |
Ephriam,
I respectfully disagree.
On point one the family does not disagree that he went back to the rez after the battle. As far as the timing to get back I know from the Victory Ride in 2003 and 2007 where the Lakota youth rode their horses all the way from Dupree, SD on the west side of the Cheyenne River rez to the Indian Memorial at the Little Bighorn Battlefield (360 miles) that the first time it took 21 days and the second time 18 days. And that was with inexperienced riders, children 7-8 years old and horses that were not used to being ridden so much. So it took everyone including the horses about 10-12 days just to get into shape. Once we did, a 30+ mile ride per day was easy and on more than one day we rode over 40 miles. This was all without trailering a single mile. So when you juxtapose that against a warrior that rode all the time with a horse in prime shape I'd say that the 33 days between the end of the battle and the meeting is more than plenty of time to get there and even relax for awhile.
As far as whether someone is mentioned or not while recounting a battle they've been in, I have been in battle and I have had to tell stories of battles on occasion. I normally just talk about my own experience and those I could see and hear within a small area immediately around me. Talking about our leaders is not something that a soldier or warrior normally does a lot of unless pushed. I have read very few of the old Lakota interviews where the interviewee was pushed very hard. In the heat of battle you do not watch your leader, you watch in the direction that the bullets being fired at you come from. You know Ernie LaPointe, he was in battle, ask him.
Let's put it on a personal level. If I asked everyone in this forum what they did at work, those that told me would tell me what they did. Would they tell me about their boss? Most probably would not, because that wasn't the question. Does that mean they have no boss? Hardly. So unless these interviews specifically ask about Touch The Cloud when the interviewees were asked about what they did at the battle then I have a hard time accepting it.
As far as point three, I have read the papers of that era and there's not a lot of difference journalistically between them and the current day tabloids. But lets say that what you surmise is true and Touch The Cloud did say what you claim. We both know that the feelings towards the Lakota from white society in general in 1877 were not good because of what had happened the previous year. So why would he want to make himself a flashpoint in the center of the white man's world? Why would he even talk to a strange white man? It's not like the Lakota knew what newspapers were, let alone reporters. Did the reporter have an interpreter? Who was he? Too many loose ends.
Finally I know from my experiences that quite often the truth does not come out right away. When I first met the Clown family I specifically asked if Crazy Horse had a sister. They said no. Six months later they showed me a picture of Iron Cedar with her husband and that she was their great grandmother and Crazy Horse's half sister. I reminded them that they said he had no sister. They told me they just wanted to see where the story went. So unless you are willing to commit to spend a lot of time with the individual families will you receive anything close to full trust. But I think that can be said pretty much of anyone when a stranger approaches you and asks about your family. It's human. Not just among the Natives.
So my apologies, but I don't find the 'evidence' you have presented compelling at all.
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