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Post by nicolas (carlo) on Jun 28, 2011 17:25:54 GMT -5
Miniconjou headman Red Fish is known for his peace making between the Miniconjou and the Crows during the Ft. Laramie talks in 1851, and to a lesser extent for his encounter with Father De Smet three years earlier, when he requested De Smet’s help in getting his captured daughter back from the Crows. Unfortunately, not many additional details are known of his life.
Garrick Mallery notes that Elk That Bellows Walking, aka Whistling Elk, a noted Miniconjou chief in the late 1860’s, was the son of Red Fish and the older brother of Lone Horn II.
We know that Whistling Elk was not a son of Black Buffalo, who had two or three sons in total: One Horn, Lone Horn and (possibly) High Backbone. Therefore we can conclude that he was not a brother to Lone Horn in the Euro-American sense. To be referred to as a brother in Lakota terms, Lone Horn would have been a cousin of Whistling Elk; either a son of Whistling Elk’s father’s brother, or a son of Whistling Elk’s mother’s sister. It’s interesting to speculate that if it was the former, then Red Fish was a full brother to Black Buffalo.
But in order for this to even make sense as a possibility, we would need to know the birth year for Red Fish. He was a chief in the late 1830’s and died around 1868-69. Given that he still led a war party in 1848 I would estimate he was born not before 1800.
Black Buffalo lived between approx. 1760 and 1820, so for Red Fish to be his (much) younger brother is clearly a stretch. As Red Fish was approximately the same age as Black Buffalo’s oldest son One Horn, it may actually make more sense that Red Fish was a nephew of Black Buffalo, and thus his son Whistling Elk would be a younger nephew of Lone Horn.
This fits nicely with Red Fish rising to a leadership position after One Horn's death (Lone Horn was still too young then) & also with the fact that Whistling Elk was third to sign the 1868 Treaty for the Miniconjou, after the older chief Lone Horn who signed first.
Any thoughts?
(Btw, Red Fish’s son is named The Ass in the Winter Counts – possibly a winkte name for Whistling Elk.)
Carlo
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Henri
Full Member
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Post by Henri on Jun 29, 2011 2:14:18 GMT -5
According an article from Kingsley Bray in the Nebraska Historical, quarterly magazine, Lone Horn was the son of Red Fish. During the 1851 treaty it wasn't clear that Red Fish was present at the time. Lone Horn was present.
Maybe Kingsley can chim in to give more details about this.
Henri
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Post by hreinn on Jun 29, 2011 7:17:47 GMT -5
Carlo: Very interesting connection and thoughts ! Was Red Fish able to get back his daughter from the Crows ? In 1868, a photograph was taken at Fort Laramie where Whistling Elk is the third from right and Lone Horn is the fourth from right.  Just to be sure I would like to ask. When you wrote "Lone Horn II", do you mean Lone Horn who sits next to Whistling Elk on the photograph above ? The Lone Horn on the photograph was also known as Black Bull 2/Black Buffalo 2 and was born 1804 and died between 1874-1876. On different year of death see the thread Lone Horn of the North. amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=miniconjou1&action=display&thread=901. Hreinn |
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Post by nicolas (carlo) on Jun 29, 2011 8:56:18 GMT -5
Henri:
Lone Horn was not the son of Red Fish, Kingsley has commented himself that this was incorrect. That his father was Black Buffalo (or Black Bull) has been discussed at this board earlier, don't know the exact links, but I believe there are several. That was the reason he was also known as Black Buffalo II, he took the name of his older brother One Horn when he died in 1834 or 1835.
Hreinn:
Yes, fortunately Red Fish's daughter managed to escape her Crow captors and flee back to her people. When Red Fish returned from Ft Pierre, where he met De Smet, he was reunited with her in their village.
With Lone Horn II I do mean the Lone Horn in your picture. The II serves as a distinction between him and his older brother One Horn, as in Lakota their names were identical. (Btw, not to nitpick, but it is my understanding that he was born in 1814 and died in winter 1875/76.)
Carlo
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 29, 2011 9:14:38 GMT -5
Hi folks,
I´m sure Kingsley has something to add on Red Fish, but he is on vacation for at least two weeks.
Best
Dietmar
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Henri
Full Member
Posts: 103
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Post by Henri on Jun 29, 2011 13:39:19 GMT -5
In the same article I mentioned before, it stated that Four Horns ( Hunkpapa ) adopted two brothers of Lone Horn. Lame Deer aka Elk that Bellows Walking and Red Anus.
Can anyone comfirm this?
Henri
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Post by nicolas (carlo) on Jun 29, 2011 15:32:30 GMT -5
Henri, Ah, here is where it gets confusing, I agree! Until recently, Lame Deer and Elk That Bellows Walking were understood to be the same person. However, this is proven to be incorrect. See here, the very last post: amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=hunkpapa1&thread=172&page=1. The relation between Lone Horn and Lame Deer is still unclear to me, but both were part of the same band, so we might assume some family tie here, but that's another topic. On Four Horns adopting Elk That Bellows Walking / Whistling Elk and "Red Ass", this is based on Stanley Vestal’s reading of the 1856-1857 winter counts. However, most comments on these winter counts agree that it was Red Fish’s son that danced a ‘camulet’ dance or ‘made medicine’ while wearing a headdress with four horns, sometime between 1856 and 1861. See The Year The Stars Fell, p. 239, 241, and 247: it is clear that The Ass (not Red Ass) and Whistling Elk are one and the same person, and is Red Fish’s son. Now it gets quite interesting, as other winter counts mention that Lone Horn made medicine in 1858-1859. Could this event be connected to Red Fish’s son making medicine? So if both events were rather a single hunka ceremony between Lone Horn and Whistling Elk, that would actually explain they were called brothers… without the direct family ties, but still very real brothers in the Lakota sense. This would also serve to reinforce Whistling Elk's future status, as his father Red Fish had lost quite some influence and standing after his war party was soundly defeated by the Crows in 1848. Carlo |
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Post by hreinn on Jun 29, 2011 17:37:57 GMT -5
Carlo: No, no, in my view this is not nitpicking.  This is how things should be done - to double check, cross verify and criticize. By doing that you attain an informed conclusion. My source for Lone Horn birth as 1804 is the Clown family on their DVD "The Authorized Biography of Crazy Horse and His Family", Part I. According to the Clown family, One Horn was born in 1794 and High Backbone (aka Hump) was born in 1811. Hreinn |
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Post by hreinn on Jul 14, 2011 17:48:42 GMT -5
Hardorff writes in his book "The Death of Crazy Horse" page 48, fn.47 (Bison Books 2001):
"The son of Crippled Warbonnet, Lone Horn was born into distinguished family whose ancestors were hereditary leaders of the Minneconjous."
Since the Clown family does not mention Crippled Warbonnet as another name for Black Buffalo/Black Bull on their DVD.
I think it is a misunderstanding that Crippled Warbonnet was father to Lone Horn.
Perhaps Crippled Warbonnet was somehow connected to Red Fish & Elk That Bellows Walking ?
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Sept 24, 2011 8:11:19 GMT -5
Perhaps Miyelo and Victor were discussing the same Red Fish as this thread is about ? Victor told me the other day that there were two brothers,both named Red Fish. Their father was Swift Bear and they had different mothers.
Lone Horn was the son of Black Bull, not Black Buffalo. Hreinn |
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Post by Historian on Sept 25, 2015 9:29:00 GMT -5
 A detail that may help is that the Mniconjou Lakota man known commonly as Whistling Elk, had the Lakota name "Oh-pon-ah-tah-e-manne" on U.S. Government Documents, such as the Treaty signed at Fort Laramie in 1868, when the attached photo was taken. Oh-pon-ah-tah-e-manne or Upan-ahtahe-mani (Upan = cow elk; ahtahe = bellows; mani = walking), would be translated as Cow Elk Bellows Walking, which is different than the translation of Elk Bellows Walking, because that translation may give the impression that it is a Bull Elk bellowing while walking. However, the Lakota term for a Bull Elk is "Hehaka" or "He-haka", (He = horn; haka = branching), or "Branching Horn" implying the branching antlers of a male Elk. Just a little nugget of information. |
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Post by calvinspottedelk on Feb 3, 2024 21:14:59 GMT -5
According an article from Kingsley Bray in the Nebraska Historical, quarterly magazine, Lone Horn was the son of Red Fish. During the 1851 treaty it wasn't clear that Red Fish was present at the time. Lone Horn was present. Maybe Kingsley can chim in to give more details about this. Henri She Elk Voice Walking is an uncle (great uncle) to Jasper Spotted Elk and in our probate records. I know it was long circulated in the public that Red Fish was the father of Lone Horn but as our family understands, Red Fish was a brother of Lone Horn. They also strongly resemble each other. She Elk Voice Walking was a shirt-wearer and although we haven't been able to clear it up with descendants, yet, we think it's possible he was Red Fish's son and a nephew of Lone Horn. |
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