|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 12, 2011 10:43:31 GMT -5
I have been wondering what others think about this movie. I must say that I didn't like it very much when I watched it the first time. Since then, it has grown a lot on me and is now one of my favorite movies. I guess I've watched it at least a dozen times. Some people see it as an allegory to the Vietnam War. I don't see it that way. It's one of the few movies (the others being "Geronimo - An American Legend" and "The Missing" - much newer creations) that tries for an authentic view of both the Chiricahua People, the problems and fears they faced and the hostilities between them and the white invaders. There are very few things I don't like about this move: - the raped woman; Apaches normally didn't rape female victims - quotes like "Apaches don't treat their own women much better" - one of the Natives that appears several times until halfway through the movie suddenly disappears from the screen. My guess is that an importan scene was cut. - and finally that it's not the real (historically accurate) Ulzana Raid that we get in the movie Otherwise it's top-notch. The Natives' costumes are as authentic as if they were taken from Geronimo's men. The glimpses we get from the San Carlos Agency show us that this subject (with the post buildings, wickiups and camp life) was well-researched. The landscape is gorgeous and the location where it was filme is historically accurate. There are no trashy or cheesy dialogues in the movie. No unnecessary and exhausting side stories to this film. The producers concentrated on one subject and they did that really well. The Apaches are played by Native Americans (some are maybe Mexicans, but with obviously native blood in them, like Joaquin Martinez who plays Ulzana, or Jorge Luke who impersonifies the scout Ke-ni-tay). Some are even Apache, like Larry Colelay, which is a typical Western Apache last name. Another, Wallace Sinyella could also be Apache, or Navajo or Havasupai. If you check google or facebook you'll find a couple Natives with these last names. All Natives in the movie give us an excellent performance, even though none of them had an actor career (the one with the most movie appearences (seven) is Gil Escandon! I very much like Ulzana's "segundo", the man below. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 12, 2011 10:45:50 GMT -5
Ke-ni-tay, played by Jorge Luke. Probably the best performance in the movie, he was simply great! Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 12, 2011 10:47:33 GMT -5
A lovely scene that unfortunately doesn't appear in the movie - McIntosh (Burt Lancaster) and his Apache wife (Aimée Eccles). Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 12, 2011 10:48:58 GMT -5
Ulzana (center) and his men. Three are missing, including his son. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Mar 12, 2011 12:51:10 GMT -5
First, where are you people?  second, I translate my opinion that I put on my website (www.redroad.fr) in french about Ulzanna's raid ("Fureur Apache" in French). I like it because it explains very well, how hard it was to fight the Chiricahua warriors for white soldiers and that Crook was right when he said "Only Apaches scouts could beat Apaches warriors!". The life on reservation was showing in a realistic way and that Chiricahuas warriors acted like individuals people. This movie try to explain the difference of thinking of red warriors. But it said that Ulzanna did a raid because he loved war. It is wrong. Chiricahuas escaped from San Carlos because of scaring, missing their land and their freedom. To be watched more than Geronimo with Wes Studi. In Geronimo, the music was good, the ethnology was good, I liked the native actors especially Wes Studi but the story tolded was bad (they forgot History) and confused. |
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 12, 2011 13:15:21 GMT -5
Thanks for your post, courrouge. I, like you, miss the people posting in here! Where are they all? Naiches, Jeroen, Perico, Second etc.?
I also like Geronimo mainly because of the beautiful scenery (great camera!), the sound, actors, the costumes etc. That the story is told from the memoirs of Lt. Britton Davis is a brillant idea. The bad thing is that it's not really basing on Davis' account (his book "The Truth about Geronimo"). It's less a historical narrative than much more a hollywood movie. There are too many cut-scenes as well as unneccessary and confusing subplots (like the Marshall scene, the bounty hunters...). I as well don't like that the Geronimo surrender has been completely taken out of it's historical context and accuracy. The movie is to fast-paced and discursive. It lacks a constructing story in which the watcher can come into it and get a feeling for the circumstances back then and what actually led to the problems. An enjoable and good movie, but could have been excellent.
The Missing, on the other hand, is a typical Hollywood story (good guys, bad guys, heroes, lots of emotion, foreseeable ending) that doesn't necessarily live from the Natives in it. Yet they are very nicely portrayed by their actors. I especially liked Jay Tavare as Kayitah and Juddson Keith Linn as Chauaiao. Best performance was by Jenna Boyd as Dot Gilkeson. The script is not very good, though, and the dialogues are Hollywood stereotype.
Another that comes to mind is "Blueberry". Not very suspenseful, but it gives a very sympathetic picture of the Chiricahua. Worth watching.
The german movies "Ulzana" (1974) and "Apachen" (1973) give a positive view as well.
Chiricahuas also have a short appearance in the (well worth watching) movie "Appaloosa".
By far the worst "Apache Movie" that I have ever seen was "Arrowhead". Simply dumb and racist.
Others (mediocre and bad ones) that come to mind: Taza, son of Cochise; Cuchillo; Apache Guns; Walk the Proud Land (didn't like that one); El Condor; Battle at Apache Pass; Broken Arrow; Apache Uprising; Fort Apache; Geronimo (mediocre movie with Joseph Runningfox); Geronimo (1962 with blue-eyed Chuck Connors); Buffalo Soldiers; Shalako; Cry Blood Apache; Gunsmoke - The last Apache, Stalking Moon; Stand at Apache River; War Drums; Indian Uprising; Apache Blood; Major Dundee; Mackenna's Gold
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on Mar 12, 2011 14:33:10 GMT -5
Hi, Naiches here! Good day (for die), guys!
My likely films about Wild West are "Deadman" by Jim Jarmush and "The good, the bad and the ugly" by Sergio Leone. I don't like films about Apaches very much. But 'Geronimo' and 'The Missing' are good sometimes. And I'll agreed with Kayitah - Jay Tavare as Kayitah is best.
I looked "Blueberry"yesterday. Too much mystic and Apache gold!
|
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Mar 12, 2011 15:36:18 GMT -5
To watch Bleberry the Movie, it was a good disappointed thing for ma and the comics' fans. Read the comics write by Charlier and draw by Giraud. It is a french one. it was a part of this hero Mike Steve Blueberry that I was interresting of Native Americans. Very good and complex stories (29 in all with 19 on Civil War) with very great draws (Giraud is a precursor and a reference in Europe for his realistic draws). The draw back the page on my website with the list of the Apache tribe, is a paint of Giraud.
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 13, 2011 7:17:38 GMT -5
First, where are you people? second, I translate my opinion that I put on my website (www.redroad.fr) in french about Ulzanna's raid ("Fureur Apache" in French). I like it because it explains very well, how hard it was to fight the Chiricahua warriors for white soldiers and that Crook was right when he said "Only Apaches scouts could beat Apaches warriors!". The life on reservation was showing in a realistic way and that Chiricahuas warriors acted like individuals people. This movie try to explain the difference of thinking of red warriors. But it said that Ulzanna did a raid because he loved war. It is wrong. Chiricahuas escaped from San Carlos because of scaring, missing their land and their freedom. To be watched more than Geronimo with Wes Studi. In Geronimo, the music was good, the ethnology was good, I liked the native actors especially Wes Studi but the story tolded was bad (they forgot History) and confused. Well, in one of the opening scenes McIntosh and Ke-ni-tay talk to two old Apache men. They get the info that the agent "gets them short-weighed on beef". McIntosh then confronts the agent and tells him that "those that are left (on the reservation) are thinking if it was wise to stay behind". I think it tells us that Ulzana left for two reasons - unbearable life on the reservation and ambitions of prestige. |
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 13, 2011 7:19:19 GMT -5
Sorry for being quiet the last couple of weeks guys, but I have been quite busy... had to finish two paintings and also my new book is due to come out soon...
Anyway, good idea to start a thread on movies that include Apaches... Movies play an important role in shaping views and ideas of the general public and it is most unfortunate that many movies are poorly researched and history is seldom taken seriously. Therefore, I agree with Naiches in that I don't like the films about Apaches so much...
It has been years since I last saw Ulzana's Raid, didn't like it very much, it has very little to do with the historical events and, in common with most other westerns, it is told from a typical American point of view. Also, the assertion that Ulzana made this raid, because he loved war is nonsense...
As for the Geronimo movie (the one with Wes Studi), I am on par with Kayitah on that one...
The one thing I liked in The Missing, is that the makers have taken an effort to have the actors speak authentic Chiricahua (hiring Chiricahua elders like Elbys Naiche Hugar to help out)
In general, I have always wondered: Why not stick to historical facts? The real thing is far more compelling than whatever made up story...
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 13, 2011 7:32:33 GMT -5
Sorry for being quiet the last couple of weeks guys, but I have been quite busy... had to finish two paintings and also my new book is due to come out soon... Anyway, good idea to start a thread on movies that include Apaches... Movies play an important role in shaping views and ideas of the general public and it is most unfortunate that many movies are poorly researched and history is seldom taken seriously. Therefore, I agree with Naiches in that I don't like the films about Apaches so much... It has been years since I last saw Ulzana's Raid, didn't like it very much, it has very little to do with the historical events and, in common with most other westerns, it is told from a typical American point of view. Also, the assertion that Ulzana made this raid, because he loved war is nonsense... As for the Geronimo movie (the one with Wes Studi), I am on par with Kayitah on that one... The one thing I liked in The Missing, is that the makers have taken an effort to have the actors speak authentic Chiricahua (hiring Chiricahua elders like Elbys Naiche Hugar to help out)In general, I have always wondered: Why not stick to historical facts? The real thing is far more compelling than whatever made up story... I absolutely agree, I just love that the Natives in the movie speak real Chiricahua. Besides Elbys Hugar they also hired the late Berle Kanseah, grandson of Kanseah. It's a very beautiful language, but unfortunately I haven't come across some language learning software. There are a couple in Navajo, though. Rosetta Stone Navajo can be downloaded as a trial and it's pretty good. |
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 13, 2011 10:52:58 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 13, 2011 10:53:32 GMT -5
another screenshot Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:24:13 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper.
It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs.
Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs.
Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members.
When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them.
Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles.
I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important.
I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely,
Siggy Jumper
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 22, 2011 13:04:39 GMT -5
Ulzana's segundo (Gil Escandon) getting instructions from Ulzana (Joaquin Martinez) before the ambush Attachments:
|
|
